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Hello.
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Welcome to my talk show.
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My name is René Vögtli.
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Our topic today is:
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'toxic spirituality'.
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I welcome Janina Köck.
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Hello, Janina, forgive me. I'll get used to
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pronounce your name correctly.
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A warm welcome to you!
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Hi René.
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Hello Janina.
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Yes, let me say a few words about you first.
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In 2009, dear viewers, there was the very first Reiki Convention in Germany.
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That event has cult status for me,
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namely because of the inclusive spirit,
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which the founder, Frank Doerr, manifested for the first time to best of my knowledge,
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in the form of such an occasion.
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It was an eye opener for me at the time to have so many different Reiki traditions in one place.
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For me it was somewhere ... I'll put it differently:
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the work I am doing today with Reiki-Conciliation found its origin there.
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And on that note, a big thank you to Frank Doerr.
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There were all sorts of workshops at the convention.
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Among other things, there was also a panel discussion, in which for the
first time, representatives of the most diverse associations
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and Schools of Reiki presented themselves on one and the same stage,
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themselves and their own organizations.
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That in itself was a relatively explosive situation.
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But now there was also the fact that all the guests,
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were presidents of their executive boards, experienced, senior representatives of their office,
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whereas the moderator appeared very young, bold, self-confident
and modern and in many ways, was a step ahead of all of us.
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Warm welcome,
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our Janina Köck here.
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Here is 13 years later.
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Janina is a spiritual teacher, Reiki expert,
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long-standing and highly respected op-editor on these topics,
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companion of people on their way to themselves,
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brilliant presenter and a step ahead of us all in the sense
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that she consciously dealt with spiritual questions at the age of ten,
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and was already attuned to Reiki at the age of 13.
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Her credo today: "A grounded spirituality that values joy."
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Welcome, Janina.
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Thank you René, you summed it up wonderfully.
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Are you satisfied? Did I get it to some extent?
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I am very satisfied and I also fondly remember the first convention,
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where we met.
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This was really for me...
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Only yesterday...
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here's something small...
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This is a giveaway I prepared for the Austrian Reiki Convention as a small gift.
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This is a diamond.
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And for me, the Reiki community today is something very complex,
colorful with many individual facets
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and each shines in itself, has a brilliance and is still part of a whole,
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something valuable, a treasure - the diamond.
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And I remember back then, I think I even mentioned it to you,
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because I already saw myself in the older generation than you back then:
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if there are young people like you in this scene, in this world,
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then there is a lot of hope that we have a great future.
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And here we are 13 years later, chatting to each other
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on the subject of spiritual toxicity...
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The other way round: "toxic spirituality".
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(Janina laughs.)
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Spiritual toxicity...hmm...interesting too.
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Was it a Freudian slip? I wonder.
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Let's start with some definitions,
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maybe even with the word 'spirituality'.
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When I say spirituality or when we talk about spirituality now,
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what do we mean by that?
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What do you mean by that?
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In particular, I mean the path to oneself in relation with something higher.
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Whatever the name, whether you call it God, universe, nature, I personally don't care
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but it's about saying more YES to yourself, so to speak,
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Yes to your 'own divine core', that's what I call it. Or to the 'own self'.
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CG Jung always spoke about 'self-realization, the way of individuation'.
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That's the psychological term for it.
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How do you see that with spirituality?
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For me it is always a question in every seminar: What is spirituality anyway?
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I try to say it as simply as possible.
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Sooner or later we all have the question:
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why am I here
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How about God? Does it even exist? And if so, what is my relationship to it?
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What is my calling in the here and now?
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And when I look it up on Wikipedia, I find this:
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Search, orientation, intuitive viewing
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or the subjective experience of something that cannot be grasped and rationally explained
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Transcending the reality underlying the material world.
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you nod are you happy with it?
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I think it's still...
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So for me it's even more.
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Not just what is there as a definition.
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I think that's part of how I see spirituality as well.
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This is mostly...
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that you deal with things that are not immediately tangible.
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I also find that everything that relates to this
personality development or character formation,
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also in the sense that nothing is really tangible.
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There are many different ways to get there.
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Many roads that lead to Rome.
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Exactly.
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Yes, exactly.
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Then the question would be: what is toxic?
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Not now specifically to spirituality, but in principle.
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It's a borrowed word. Maybe not everyone out there knows it.
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Toxic is known more from intoxication,
i.e. from getting poisoned and being poisoned.
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There is also a saying in medicine, that of naturopathy:
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The dose makes the poison. So something toxic can also be healing, in small doses.
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But if it gets too much, you poison yourself.
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And if you bring that together now, I would say it poisons your own bit by bit
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or your own picture of yourself and what
spirituality actually is and maybe should be.
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When you started, alcohol just came to my mind.
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It can be exhilarating and fun.
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Medicinal plants ...
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The medicinal plants of the indigenous peoples,
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which can be used to expand consciousness.
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But if you take too much of it, you can also become dependent on it
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and that can then also create bad properties for one’s metabolism.
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Or induce psychosis or something.
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Homeopathy comes to mind, where it's the dosage that counts.
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...
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We talked a week ago, for the first time in many years,
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that we talked.
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For me the central focus was not, Oh, can I do an RTalk with Janina?
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But it was getting to know you again, reconnecting
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as a person and as a colleague, of course. as a professional colleagues.
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In the course of the conversation, in a side comment,
you mentioned the topic of ... toxic spirituality.
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I knew straight away that this was an interesting topic.
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Since then I've approached a few friends and realized that this is hot.
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But, I have to admit that I didn't have
such a direct or considered approach to it.
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For me it was... My spontaneous reaction to this catchphrase was,
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yes, these wannabe holy circles that sit together and say:
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Oh come, we all love each other and if we only
think positively, then everything will be fine.
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I'm presenting it a little somewhat theatrically and
hopefully not in an undignified way towards people,
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who do gather in spiritual circles. I don’t mean it that way.
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But my approach was actually just that.
And it didn't really ignite me.
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What do you think is so explosive when we say ‘toxic spirituality’?
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You already mentioned that I started with the whole topic very, very young.
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And ...
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I would also say that at a young age one might be a bit impressionable,
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or that many things have shaped you more so then,
especially at the age of puberty. And what happens at that age.
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And there were a few...
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Let me just recapitulate: I'm 39 now. I've been doing Reiki since I was 13.
2/3 of my life I am with Reiki – as of this year.
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Two thirds of my life I am with Reiki, with energy work.
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I hardly remember the time without Reiki.
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But a few things happened to me over the many, many years.
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And what I also noticed about statements that are
made just like so, that are ... very, very counterproductive.
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And people exist who, in their development,
exercise power, to keep you small, to manipulate you.
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And all these destructive things, I also saw them in spirituality, too,
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sometimes they even have great importance, which
is why the topic is now very, very important to me.
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I came into contact with it very early on.
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If I recall, then already my Reiki teacher was
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- as much as I loved her, she was like a second mother to me -
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such an example, because, for example, only her word counted.
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Only she was right.
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I also learned the pendulum dowsing from her. I got that very, very early,
when I was eleven, and I refined it with her.
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And if she did anything, she was right as a matter of principle
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and I principally was ... If I got a different result, it was wrong.
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Then the chakras were examined and
then some demon was in some chakra.
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Well, it was said again and again - today it's called,
I think, gaslighting – it was repeated:
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You're wrong, there's something wrong with you. I am the teacher. I am right.
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And such behavioral patterns have become familiar to me
over the years - which also made me aware of them -
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and I have encountered such behaviors and worse over the years.
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Which was a nice learning experience
- at least for my students because I then did the opposite
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and became very undogmatic and rather insisted
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that you should listen to your own feelings
and that's what's important in your own learning,
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to listen to your own feelings and intuition.
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No matter what any teacher says who has written
no matter how many books or is a guru.
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Hold on here before we talk about the other way,
the healthier way, the opposite of toxic.
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If we ever... You also used a term: gaslighting.
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This is very interesting because I've heard that term
repeated over and over again for the last two months
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and in the preparation for our conversation, it kept popping up.
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For that reason, I have already prepared …
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Yes, you're surprised, aren’t you?
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Would you like to read it and read it out loud right away.
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Gaslighting, the definition is: deliberately unsettling
another person to the point of complete collapse.
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Ultimately, the victim can no longer
distinguish between truth and appearance.
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And I would like to add that this is often
used in connection with narcissism.
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Explain yourself.
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It's about Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
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Gaslighting is a symptom to recognize narcissists
or what is so destructive with someone
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who has narcissistic personality disorder to be with.
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At some point you think you're crazy.
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The person does something and you feel small, you feel affected
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and the next day you want to address it
or you want to address it directly
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and the person says, "No, I didn't do that at all.
What made you think of that now?"
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And the blame always shifts to the other person.
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And the narcissistic personality is not to blame at all.
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That's what came up... It's just been this narcissism thing lately.
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I don't know if it's the same in your social media bubble,
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but it's also a very big topic, especially in psychology or in the field of coaching.
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On social media, what would be an example where
that is expressed and discussed and hot right now...?
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A lot of information videos about narcissists,
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where narcissists themselves talk about
their behavior or it becomes known about it,
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how to recognize a narcissist or someone who is very narcissistic.
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It does not always have to be the personality
disorder and above all in the sense of love relationships.
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Well, that's exciting because...
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You obviously move in less boulevard ... or vice versa:
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The algorithm behind your YouTube and Facebook
is obviously geared more towards academic things
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and mine definitely has a boulevard character,
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because there is a big topic on social media
about this type of personality disorder.
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Do you know what I'm referring to?
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Do you mean Johnny Depp and Amber Heard?
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Yes, exactly!
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That would be that.
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So, Amber Heard is being accused of - I don't want to take sides -
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that she just did something like gaslighting.
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Or mental... the English word is 'abuse'.
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Abuse.
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Abuse, correct. You always hear it in English.
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And Johnny Depp also addressed that. "You hit me then!"
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"No, I didn't hit you,
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I didn't hit you at all! I might have nudged you a little
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But I didn't hit you then. How did you come up with that?"
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I'm proud of my preparation.
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I wanted you to be surprised.
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I had prepared ‘gaslighting’.
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I have a picture of Johnny Depp right away, right on the hot topic.
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I don't want to go straight to Johnny Depp just yet because...
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The question still occupies me a little from those circles of which I spoke.
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...
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Let me be less theatrical for a moment.
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Often in my dealings with my friends, when we are
having serious conversations, I see a tendency
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that my acquaintances, I have to say, generally tend to agree:
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"Yes, yes, that's difficult."
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"Yes, yes, it's really bad what's happening there."
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I realize more and more that really good friends
they contradict me. They tell me:
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"No, I see it differently. I understand where you're
coming from, but I have a different take on it."
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They hold the mirror out to me.
0:18:06.480,0:18:14.220
And I wonder if this agreement, this all-too-frivolous one,
Whether it isn't a bit on the same subject
0:18:14.220,0:18:22.849
of toxic spirituality - or toxic relationship work, one could say
- whether it doesn't fall in there as well.
0:18:22.933,0:18:23.830
What do you think about that?
0:18:24.839,0:18:26.730
I see it that way too, I think...
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Well, the topic is very, very broad, I would almost say.
0:18:32.213,0:18:38.549
And there are a great many, like your diamond,
a great many gradations and a great many facets of it.
0:18:38.940,0:18:42.960
For one, I see the thing you said at the very beginning, always this light and love
0:18:43.043,0:18:48.150
and we must never be angry, where one tends to suppress feelings.
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But this agreement, especially with people who one sees as an authority,
0:18:57.850,0:19:02.519
Yes, he's right, she's right, she's been doing
energy work for so many years, or
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she calls herself a guru or expert and she's right. Oh and books written, yeah!
0:19:09.840,0:19:10.850
...
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This is not healthy at all, not even healthy for the person,
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who has now gotten such a status, somehow or are attributed,
0:19:21.900,0:19:28.289
because there, too, the thinking, the differentiated thinking,
disappears into the background.
0:19:28.950,0:19:31.890
And you think, yes, I'm so great, I'm so great.
0:19:32.579,0:19:34.950
And (ego) is exaggerated, so to speak.
0:19:35.033,0:19:40.650
And it can come to get a slightly megalomaniac touch.
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Yes, but that is a gradual process.
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The megalomania may not have been there from the start.
0:19:49.440,0:19:50.560
I know ...
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I just got the issue of...
0:19:57.450,0:20:02.089
a book called "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying".
0:20:02.173,0:20:04.210
I think I'm putting it correctly.
0:20:04.810,0:20:09.920
It is written by a Tibetan monk who then fell out of favor later...
0:20:11.900,0:20:16.049
for sexual assault, for abuse,
0:20:16.380,0:20:18.000
because of his authority.
0:20:18.509,0:20:19.230
Now.
0:20:19.440,0:20:23.220
I prepared the video for a reason and I'll get to that in a moment.
0:20:23.303,0:20:26.730
But I want to summarize first.
0:20:27.119,0:20:30.119
Have a look, would you agree with that too?
0:20:30.203,0:20:35.790
Spiritually toxic friends don't respond well when someone says "no."
0:20:35.860,0:20:42.500
Then they go on the attack, hitting around or gaslighting (manipulation)
0:20:43.290,0:20:45.450
and question your maturity.
0:20:45.630,0:20:50.450
And then they often have the answer, the ready-made, finished answer for you.
0:20:50.453,0:20:56.039
'You just have to do that' and then they
often come up with dogmas and advice.
0:20:57.000,0:21:04.000
That's how I summarized it in my research and I think that reflects
0:21:04.000,0:21:10.030
whatever you said, your own experience as a teenager went a long way.
0:21:10.070,0:21:10.950
Is that right?
0:21:11.033,0:21:12.599
Yes. That's right.
0:21:12.683,0:21:16.760
An example that I like to use and that people
like to take are these mirror laws (law of attraction).
0:21:17.460,0:21:20.620
For example, if I say something offensive to you now
0:21:21.190,0:21:28.340
or insult you aggressively with a smile and you say:
0:21:28.340,0:21:33.330
"Yes, but Janina, it doesn't work that way, you can't say
that because of so and so. What's that supposed to mean?"
0:21:33.579,0:21:40.590
And then I say: "Yes, so if it bothers you, then I'm
just your mirror. If it triggers something in you,
0:21:40.630,0:21:45.269
That's not me, that's just you. Then you have to see what's inside you."
0:21:45.390,0:21:49.410
Always with such a smug smile, "what's inside you, what's hurting now".
0:21:50.950,0:21:53.349
And that's what we do in society all the time.
0:21:54.519,0:21:59.349
Yes, or this: "One must never judge. You must not judge."
0:22:00.940,0:22:04.950
We evaluate all the time. I have to evaluate
every day whether I get up or not.
0:22:05.040,0:22:10.280
What I feel like eating, what I want to wear,
whether I wear glasses or not,
0:22:10.310,0:22:13.660
what I do with my children. I always have to give a rating.
0:22:14.650,0:22:17.390
And then, of course, something else goes under.
0:22:17.440,0:22:19.850
I always have to make a decision. All day long.
0:22:21.460,0:22:26.259
So to me, that is toxic spirituality, that talk of
0:22:26.890,0:22:33.650
do not evaluate because it ignores neurological
functions that are well documented,
0:22:33.970,0:22:38.180
I immediately evaluated every sentence you spoke just now.
0:22:38.680,0:22:42.090
That means - and that's basically not a bad thing -
0:22:42.640,0:22:49.770
I filtered it based on my life experience, my own opinions.
0:22:50.410,0:22:52.830
This is an evaluation process automatically,
0:22:52.830,0:22:58.299
because my life experience are exactly
the very limitations of my life experience.
0:22:58.569,0:23:03.069
And I'm glad you brought up the subject with such clarity.
0:23:03.549,0:23:08.630
If you don't mind, I'll show you the video now
because I'd like to take the topic elsewhere.
0:23:10.119,0:23:10.745
Okay.
0:23:11.319,0:23:13.299
Johnny Depp is a household name to you.
0:23:13.539,0:23:20.079
Here he is, the handsome man and we'll see. Doesn't go long. 30 seconds.
0:23:21.259,0:23:25.760
(The attorney concludes her argument and thanks the jury.)
0:23:27.230,0:23:30.620
(The judge thanks her.)
0:23:44.740,0:23:47.310
Look at the intimacy between the two.
0:23:49.010,0:23:52.730
Look how he's smiling affectionately at her.
0:23:53.680,0:23:56.589
And then the congratulations.
0:23:56.673,0:24:01.930
Look at this intimacy. You know the rumours on social media.
0:24:03.670,0:24:06.640
Now we don't want to cook rumours, but ...
0:24:07.359,0:24:15.740
The rumor mill was then also commented on
by a panel of serious lawyers.
0:24:16.150,0:24:25.019
There is an English expression 'endearment',
loving affection towards a person.
0:24:25.119,0:24:31.610
Then it was argued that if a lawyer with a client
0:24:31.840,0:24:35.100
- so she now with her client Johnny Depp -
0:24:35.250,0:24:40.480
work together for so long and so intensively
and particularly if she is convinced
0:24:40.480,0:24:42.940
- and I would like that from a lawyer -
0:24:43.080,0:24:48.880
of my attitude or of my innocence in the example,
that this creates a closeness
0:24:48.963,0:24:53.500
there is an intimacy, and that has been seen here, very nicely seen.
0:24:53.890,0:24:57.830
And as a man, I was really happy
0:24:58.850,0:25:05.440
because in fact, you can see the similar physical contact
between the male lawyer and Johnny Depp.
0:25:05.799,0:25:11.890
And I was very happy about that and it is an
example not of toxic masculinity, but of the opposite.
0:25:12.220,0:25:20.290
Where one is transparent, where one is vulnerable,
but also at the same time
0:25:20.420,0:25:31.750
dares to show his feelings and stands by them and
does not simulate any artificial political correctness.
0:25:33.330,0:25:38.930
It was interesting for me to hear from lawyers
that there is this 'endearment',
0:25:38.930,0:25:44.590
So there's this positive, loving affection because... when I...
0:25:44.670,0:25:48.840
When I give a Reiki treatment, when I have a Reiki student,
0:25:49.170,0:25:51.580
I fall in love with these students every time.
0:25:53.000,0:25:55.180
(Laughter)
0:25:56.829,0:25:58.010
A little bit, isn't it?
0:25:59.559,0:26:00.789
'Falling in love' in quotation marks.
0:26:00.873,0:26:05.800
For me, the Greek word 'agape' would be in
the foreground now, not erotic love,
0:26:06.040,0:26:12.790
but just this, if you want, unconditional way.
So, this real open heart,
0:26:12.810,0:26:19.350
this form of compassion, true compassion, pregnant,
0:26:20.260,0:26:25.720
always overwhelming experience in this affection for me.
0:26:25.803,0:26:28.080
That's what I meant by in love.
0:26:29.470,0:26:34.400
I'm sure you see it that way too, you've probably
experienced it umpteen times, haven't you?
0:26:35.259,0:26:40.680
Yes, and I also tell my first degree students
to learn or get Reiki first for the first time
0:26:40.680,0:26:44.380
is sometimes also like being in love with the energy.
0:26:44.619,0:26:48.370
And I've experienced that very often,
so to speak, when you're with Reiki people,
0:26:48.843,0:26:51.759
in events and sees them again several times a year.
0:26:51.843,0:26:58.539
The heart opens, you hug each other, you cuddle
and you are also very vulnerable at times.
0:26:58.779,0:27:04.890
And then healing can also happen and
some things can simply go a little deeper,
0:27:05.300,0:27:08.010
because you are more open, because the masks are allowed to fall,
0:27:08.030,0:27:12.579
because you can also be vulnerable and have a heart-to-heart connection.
0:27:13.920,0:27:21.030
But now we are exactly on this threshold
where the teacher ... feels a closeness,
0:27:22.020,0:27:33.410
the student potentially goes into transference
because of his or her history.
0:27:33.493,0:27:41.480
Interestingly, as a man, that happens to me
more often than to Mischa, my wife.
0:27:41.960,0:27:51.650
That a man thinks he's erotically in love with
my wife, where it is a question of projections,
0:27:51.733,0:27:56.740
where he get in touch with something
that he hasn't felt in a long time
0:27:57.000,0:28:01.500
catalyzed by the spiritual activity, the therapeutic
activity that he experiences with my wife,
0:28:03.043,0:28:08.839
and then he projects an ideal image onto the
teacher, which has nothing at all to do with ...
0:28:09.559,0:28:13.750
And it happens to me, too. Not that often anymore.
0:28:14.029,0:28:19.290
But it has happened to me more often than to
my wife over the course of my 30-year career.
0:28:19.990,0:28:22.790
It might have something to do with the fact that I...
0:28:23.290,0:28:32.690
From a woman, gentleness or openness or emotionality
is more... expected or self-understood.
0:28:33.250,0:28:41.190
And with men it's more of a suppressed, neglected thing,
and women often have a longing for that.
0:28:41.530,0:28:48.349
And then they are with me in the seminar and see me crying
and then I become the screen for projections.
0:28:48.829,0:28:49.770
And this is ...
0:28:49.960,0:28:58.140
So now we have arrived at the student-teacher relationship
and this homeopathic, at the tipping point.
0:28:58.730,0:29:00.200
How does one handle this?
0:29:00.410,0:29:02.080
Do you know what I'm talking about?
0:29:03.150,0:29:05.260
I smile ... (laughs),
0:29:05.530,0:29:11.000
because I always said that years ago, just for fun,
that men have it easier in the Reiki scene.
0:29:11.359,0:29:18.490
Actually it is not at all easier for her,
because sometimes… I'm a bit mean now.
0:29:19.090,0:29:24.420
But sometimes 50-year-old drooling women
sit there like 16 year old and say:
0:29:24.730,0:29:32.649
"Oh, can't my husband be like that too?"
Like René, for example, or other Reiki teachers I know?
0:29:33.049,0:29:36.059
And it's just a statistical thing, too.
0:29:36.143,0:29:39.440
More women are in Reiki seminars than men.
0:29:39.589,0:29:44.220
In other words, statistically speaking, there is a greater chance that...
0:29:44.980,0:29:46.619
(Both talk at the same time.)
0:29:48.809,0:29:50.940
I referred to this phenomenon.
0:29:51.023,0:29:53.220
The opposite happens less often.
0:29:54.420,0:30:00.520
But it just happens because, of course,
because women want a man to be like that.
0:30:00.720,0:30:02.460
Then something is projected.
0:30:02.543,0:30:07.990
And I've often heard from men, too, that a relationship has developed
0:30:08.080,0:30:13.969
or they then met privately, not in the context of a seminar
or workshop where he is not the teacher,
0:30:15.359,0:30:20.640
where the women were then disappointed and say:
"You're not at all like in the seminar."
0:30:20.723,0:30:21.490
Or:
0:30:21.510,0:30:27.990
"...the teacher I envisioned to grow with and be in my spiritual development
0:30:28.440,0:30:34.910
completely my true self, but you also have your problems
and your shadow side that you have to work on."
0:30:35.220,0:30:38.299
And the man then says: "Yes, of course! What did you think?"
0:30:38.490,0:30:41.670
And the woman are taken by complete surprise.
0:30:43.500,0:30:46.480
A friend, Peter, said it quite nicely:
0:30:46.550,0:30:52.080
"I'm in my teacher space. Then I'm a teacher. And then I'm in the energy of being a teacher.
0:30:52.250,0:30:57.020
And then there is also the private Peter. And then I'm private."
0:30:57.110,0:31:01.390
Just like me. I'm in my teacher space. And privately I'm a bit different.
0:31:03.220,0:31:05.050
(Both speak at the same time.)
0:31:05.750,0:31:10.140
Yes, and I think what you just described is actually a healthy development
0:31:10.960,0:31:14.970
when the masks fall, when knowledge comes to roost.
0:31:15.339,0:31:19.350
The topic is - and this now affects the following question:
0:31:20.330,0:31:21.370
...
0:31:22.000,0:31:30.190
Student-teacher relationship, in the positive case
it develops like this, but it's not always like that.
0:31:31.030,0:31:36.850
And this topic of transference, for example, is part of the tradition...
0:31:38.890,0:31:48.840
of my training for teachers, which is based,
by the way, on the code of conduct of psychiatrists,
0:31:49.720,0:31:54.009
because the topic of transference - the concept itself -
0:31:56.019,0:32:01.390
'transference' goes back to Jung and Freud, who
have already experienced this with their patients.
0:32:02.650,0:32:12.010
And then comes the question: How do I deal with it in a sensible
and dignified manner so that it doesn't lead to a toxic situation?
0:32:12.250,0:32:16.930
And we have, for example - and many people are shocked when I say this -
0:32:17.259,0:32:24.600
as a rule of thumb, because as a Reiki teacher,
especially if I were single, for example,
0:32:24.850,0:32:29.350
it is possible that I have a student that I find extremely attractive
0:32:29.600,0:32:33.240
whom I develop feelings for; how do I deal with it?
0:32:33.339,0:32:37.660
And a rule of thumb is, no sex for six months.
0:32:39.880,0:32:47.049
And that harsh-sounding, almost dogmatic
rule of thumb, drawn from psychiatric...
0:32:49.029,0:32:55.430
rules of conduct is borrowed, the background of which is
0:32:55.430,0:33:02.200
when a relationship still exists after six months and there are true feelings
0:33:02.200,0:33:08.170
and this process then probably yes... 'he has bad breath when he gets up in the morning'.
0:33:08.380,0:33:16.089
So you know when the projections are gone then of course it can be
0:33:16.173,0:33:21.539
that there was a love affair... And if they lived happily ever after.
0:33:21.623,0:33:22.779
It's nice for both of them.
0:33:24.309,0:33:26.180
(Both talk at the same time.)
0:33:27.569,0:33:35.490
I don't think this topic is discussed as openly in
'spiritual circles' - quotation marks - as it is
0:33:35.573,0:33:38.519
we are discussing them right now. Or do you have another opinion?
0:33:39.720,0:33:42.900
So in spiritual circles generalities are superior...
0:33:42.983,0:33:49.240
I remember conversations earlier that it was also recommended in the master training
0:33:49.240,0:33:56.609
which is definitely a bit longer, one should avoid entanglements, connections.
0:33:57.480,0:34:00.050
But I know from sources
0:34:02.349,0:34:05.050
that I has not always worked that way.
0:34:05.309,0:34:10.560
But for me, for my ethos, I see it as important that
as long as I am in the teacher-student relationship,
0:34:12.329,0:34:15.840
- in that sense I am also a kind of therapist, as you already said -
0:34:16.520,0:34:22.870
that I don't enter into any kind of other relationship,
love- or sexual relationship.
0:34:23.110,0:34:27.340
So that's my personal ethos, which I always pass on to my students.
0:34:27.989,0:34:31.800
What happens after that, when you meet and as you say, for a long time
0:34:32.070,0:34:34.440
getting to know each other is something else again.
0:34:34.523,0:34:38.190
But then it's best to get out of this teacher-student relationship,
0:34:38.240,0:34:39.590
because that's just too...
0:34:40.730,0:34:43.170
It's an imbalance right now.
0:34:44.539,0:34:46.250
Yes, in my opinion.
0:34:46.550,0:34:51.320
Yes, exactly. And that's why I have chosen Johnny Depp.
This closeness, this endearment, where's the line then?
0:34:51.650,0:34:53.570
These can be fluid borders.
0:34:54.170,0:34:57.860
And you have to consciously reflect on them.
0:34:58.670,0:35:04.780
So, for example, to pick up on what you said earlier about stopping a training,
0:35:04.830,0:35:06.170
that one would then say:
0:35:06.170,0:35:12.110
"I'm the wrong teacher for you.
I can't be your teacher and your lover at the same time.
0:35:12.870,0:35:19.720
And my relationship with you as a woman is more important
now - or as a man - is more important to me now than...
0:35:20.060,0:35:22.670
Find yourself another spiritual teacher."
0:35:22.753,0:35:27.580
So that would be a way of handling it. Otherwise it quickly becomes toxic.
0:35:27.889,0:35:34.740
So these are gradually changing processes, delicate processes.
0:35:35.830,0:35:37.860
...
0:35:39.499,0:35:41.369
Do you know the term 'crazy wisdom'?
0:35:42.699,0:35:43.890
Does it mean anything to you?
0:35:45.130,0:35:48.420
‘Crazy Wisdom' translated, but not...
0:35:49.930,0:35:51.230
Correctly translated.
0:35:52.840,0:35:55.469
Would you like to see another little video?
0:35:56.139,0:35:56.940
Gladly.
0:35:57.760,0:36:03.219
In history, especially in Theravada, I'm not so familiar with that.
0:36:03.303,0:36:09.250
But it's definitely in Mahayana Buddhism, in Zen, so now, in this case, in Zen
0:36:09.530,0:36:14.490
and also in Vajrayana Buddhism there are countless stories
0:36:16.910,0:36:18.730
classics, one could say
0:36:19.130,0:36:24.480
which are passed on again and again from generation to generation,
0:36:24.480,0:36:29.150
from teacher to student, in which a teacher is ...
0:36:30.450,0:36:31.860
behaving eccentrically
0:36:34.139,0:36:35.360
with the intention of,
0:36:38.880,0:36:46.100
to open a disciple's eyes, with the intention of opening a disciple's spiritual eye,
0:36:46.840,0:36:55.210
to be able to transcend this conceptual prison.
0:37:04.630,0:37:06.610
In these stories when we read them
0:37:08.050,0:37:12.580
is the situation of the student, mostly males students ...
0:37:12.910,0:37:15.890
- the stories are relatively male dominated -
0:37:17.119,0:37:20.900
students often find themselves in very uncomfortable situations.
0:37:21.320,0:37:24.120
And sometimes even for a longer period of time.
0:37:29.840,0:37:37.790
These are situations that often simply ignore the moral concepts of the time.
0:37:38.980,0:37:45.910
Where things are asked of the student that go
against - for example - against conventions
0:37:47.050,0:37:53.620
not only that of morality, but also of courtesy and decency.
0:38:01.219,0:38:06.710
Is it understandable for you that I showed this video at this point?
0:38:10.369,0:38:11.750
You mean that sometimes...
0:38:11.960,0:38:13.460
Do you think that sometimes...
0:38:15.409,0:38:19.190
Let me call it 'improper conduct', if I got it right,
0:38:19.273,0:38:28.190
is used as a teaching method to question or
break through certain boxes and conceptions.
0:38:29.909,0:38:30.690
Yes.
0:38:31.730,0:38:35.630
Like you said before, if you were to train someone,
0:38:35.713,0:38:41.329
then you would keep a certain - these are my words - a certain distance.
0:38:41.840,0:38:50.610
In the traditional 'master'-student relationship - I deliberately said 'master' -
0:38:53.000,0:38:59.860
in the Far East, where I came to Reiki myself,
the idea that the student serves the master does exist.
0:39:01.150,0:39:02.100
...
0:39:03.260,0:39:06.780
I like to illustrate that, that he shines his shoes.
0:39:09.559,0:39:14.740
This activity is not about the master having clean shoes,
0:39:15.500,0:39:19.100
but that the student learns something
0:39:19.190,0:39:28.039
learning surrender, letting go of prejudiced opinions,
a healing process, experiencing a spiritual unfoldment.
0:39:28.250,0:39:30.710
That's what this exercise is about.
0:39:31.579,0:39:38.740
And in the West this is artificially ignored for sheer political correctness
0:39:38.740,0:39:42.170
and to prevent that there is a closeness.
0:39:42.980,0:39:47.160
This is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
0:39:47.530,0:39:55.420
because my student will hopefully - and then I'll be a good teacher –
he'll be better than me
0:39:55.900,0:40:03.980
and he will be a teacher and he will have to consciously
deal with this responsibility towards the student.
0:40:04.219,0:40:13.910
By letting him shine my shoes, I prepare him for
how to deal with transference and the like.
0:40:14.520,0:40:20.880
This shoe shining would fit somewhat into the realm of 'crazy wisdom', a mild form.
0:40:22.469,0:40:24.910
I know that people like to do that, too…
0:40:26.550,0:40:30.780
that Osho liked doing it, also with daily work, for example.
0:40:31.710,0:40:33.410
I think there is a difference though.
0:40:35.269,0:40:39.230
I don't think it means that as a teacher
you can't demand anything of your students.
0:40:40.369,0:40:42.420
You don't always have to wrap the students in cotton wool.
0:40:44.520,0:40:49.770
I also think that toxic spirituality has this conviction that everything always has to be easy,
0:40:49.850,0:40:54.079
it always has to... everything to do with spirituality has to make you happy,
0:40:54.163,0:40:55.489
make you content.
0:40:56.329,0:41:03.780
No, precisely in the discomfort, in the resistance,
the greatest teachings are contained.
0:41:04.080,0:41:08.730
And going through this resistance, also going
through the boredom to some extent,
0:41:08.830,0:41:12.140
Doing a Reiki treatment every day is not always exciting.
0:41:12.500,0:41:14.630
It's even very boring at times.
0:41:15.039,0:41:15.920
You could say.
0:41:16.909,0:41:18.590
But then you get levels deeper.
0:41:18.949,0:41:23.420
Shining the shoes, concentrating on one thing or other examples are also
0:41:23.540,0:41:27.360
to meditate while doing the dishes.
0:41:27.619,0:41:30.110
To be completely present in what you do.
0:41:30.619,0:41:35.380
This continuous packing-in-cotton wool,
everything must be happy, everything must ...
0:41:35.503,0:41:39.420
One must never be angry, one must never do discomfort. That is ...
0:41:39.820,0:41:43.590
that's a term I only heard recently: 'spiritual bypassing',
0:41:44.570,0:41:51.260
facing one’s own feelings, negative feelings and turn to spirituality, is escapism, I’d say.
0:41:51.619,0:41:57.390
Many turn...they are dissatisfied with their lives,
they are ill and then they turn to spirituality.
0:41:57.433,0:42:00.289
What is my purpose in life? What am I supposed to do?
0:42:00.373,0:42:02.090
Who am I anyway? Which essentially is good.
0:42:02.480,0:42:06.920
But then always just looking for happiness and looking for contentment,
0:42:07.280,0:42:09.710
doesn't necessarily get you any further.
0:42:09.790,0:42:12.079
I'm reading a wonderful book right now...
0:42:14.150,0:42:18.150
‘After the Ecstasy the Laundry.'
0:42:18.850,0:42:24.670
He describes his enlightenment experience in the book. Enlightenment is not all Satori,
0:42:24.700,0:42:30.570
is not something that is a steady state throughout all of life, but it can also lead to
0:42:30.590,0:42:34.580
you experiencing this state of oneness, of feeling connected to everything,
0:42:34.820,0:42:37.520
this wonderful feeling 'now I know what it's all about!'
0:42:37.760,0:42:41.010
And then you come into everyday life and first go into a depression,
0:42:41.150,0:42:44.659
because that's so far removed from how you just felt.
0:42:44.989,0:42:48.230
And it's not always about holding on to this state all the time,
0:42:48.530,0:42:52.400
but for me spirituality is about not escaping,
0:42:52.670,0:42:56.610
to cope with yourself and your life, with the challenges that come
0:42:56.640,0:43:02.770
and first to find solutions or to have emotional resilience,
0:43:03.030,0:43:06.980
to be more in tune with yourself and your environment.
0:43:09.039,0:43:10.870
And still you have to wash clothes.
0:43:11.949,0:43:14.139
And still, the kids are just annoying sometimes.
0:43:14.349,0:43:17.710
And still, you are sometimes overwhelmed,
even though you meditate every day.
0:43:18.300,0:43:19.480
Hey, that's life!
0:43:20.960,0:43:24.440
Yes, I agree.
0:43:25.530,0:43:31.000
For the sake of correctness and for the sake of fairness, I want first of all
0:43:31.480,0:43:37.520
say what I showed with this Zen teacher, Corinne Frottier.
0:43:38.210,0:43:44.300
It is from a lecture, which I can only recommend,
on 'Buddhism and Abuse of Power'.
0:43:45.033,0:43:53.690
The segment that I snipped out, deals with 'crazy wisdom'.
0:43:54.310,0:44:00.100
What Janina said is still within a conventional framework,
0:44:00.310,0:44:04.969
looking after children, washing dishes,
polishing shoes, that's relatively conventional.
0:44:05.239,0:44:10.870
The idea of 'crazy wisdom', does include breaking norms,
0:44:11.930,0:44:20.260
that one dares to do something outside of one's comfort zone
and that spiritual insights can come from such a venture.
0:44:20.323,0:44:21.680
So far so good.
0:44:22.099,0:44:34.550
The problem is, when spiritual teachers misuse this practice ...
the practice of 'crazy wisdom',
0:44:34.950,0:44:46.890
to justify - almost gaslighting-wise, as you already explained –
that they themselves abuse the student.
0:44:47.230,0:44:54.940
That is the context in which Corinne Frottier gave her lecture.
0:44:54.960,0:44:57.739
So much for the sake of good order.
0:44:58.940,0:45:01.300
And it is difficult to recognize that.
0:45:02.989,0:45:12.440
Do I have a teacher who is practicing this to advance
me spiritually, to guide me out of concepts?
0:45:12.829,0:45:16.039
Or do I have a teacher who is merely justifying his abuse of power
0:45:16.280,0:45:23.690
with all kinds of spiritual backgrounds and theories that he then puts forward.
0:45:23.900,0:45:27.079
"I'm only doing it because I want to help you."
0:45:28.070,0:45:29.080
Yes, indeed ...
0:45:31.130,0:45:37.429
This is a catchphrase found in all abusive cult situations.
0:45:39.619,0:45:44.440
I think we've only scratched the surface of the subject, of course.
0:45:45.349,0:45:49.790
Nonetheless, I hope that we touched on one or the other topics,
0:45:49.790,0:45:55.099
which encourage our viewers to dig deep and think about it.
0:45:56.000,0:46:00.400
I hope that such topics as we are discussing right now
0:46:00.630,0:46:06.280
stimulate people who do advanced training, especially for spiritual teachers
0:46:06.360,0:46:11.150
- whether they are yoga teachers, meditation teachers or Reiki masters, it doesn't matter -
0:46:12.139,0:46:19.880
that it inspires them to maybe include such topics into their training programs.
0:46:20.719,0:46:26.700
So I would come towards the end of our conversation, if that's okay with you,
0:46:27.240,0:46:32.420
but not without giving you the stage, so to speak.
0:46:32.750,0:46:35.680
I want to invite you ...
0:46:37.599,0:46:44.739
Yes, to spontaneously also talk about how you imagine our future.
0:46:44.823,0:46:45.710
How do you...
0:46:47.750,0:46:48.949
imagine that ...
0:46:50.280,0:46:56.370
such violations and such abuse and such gaslighting are not made.
0:46:56.820,0:47:01.080
And what it looks like if teachers in the future ...
0:47:03.300,0:47:08.000
how they deal with their students and with their teacher situation.
0:47:08.110,0:47:14.210
Is it good for you that you say a few words about this as a conclusion?
0:47:16.039,0:47:17.030
Yes, can do.
0:47:17.480,0:47:20.370
It might go in a different direction than you intend, but...
0:47:21.739,0:47:22.760
Well, stop right there!
0:47:24.250,0:47:25.380
(Smile.)
0:47:27.460,0:47:33.480
I think the most important thing is to educate and enlighten the people who are teaching.
0:47:33.820,0:47:40.670
But if you go into the spiritual realms, one must be aware that there are people, too
0:47:40.860,0:47:46.540
in this area as in every other area, whether they are craftsmen, lawyers or doctors,
0:47:48.369,0:47:51.340
who might not want the best of you.
0:47:51.393,0:47:56.830
And I think it's relevant to listen more to one’s own self.
0:47:57.019,0:48:01.750
If someone practically forbids you to listen to yourself,
0:48:02.920,0:48:05.300
that you take to your hells and run.
0:48:08.389,0:48:12.630
It's a bit difficult to put it all into words now,
0:48:13.040,0:48:18.700
because there is no complete training concept which
I would say that it absolutely has to be taught.
0:48:18.949,0:48:23.320
What is important in training is the theory of transference,
0:48:23.380,0:48:27.710
that it can be that people fall in love with you and how you deal with it.
0:48:27.793,0:48:31.490
I find that important for a Reiki training, for a shamanic training,
0:48:32.230,0:48:35.329
or what you do in the spiritual realm, including yoga.
0:48:35.370,0:48:40.630
That as a teacher you are solid in the values that you want to pass on yourself.
0:48:41.030,0:48:47.550
That as a student when you get into a spiritual group
when you come into a new group,
0:48:47.730,0:48:52.010
you do not check-in your self-determination at the cloakroom,
0:48:52.093,0:48:54.630
but still hold on to your self-responsibility.
0:48:54.630,0:48:59.810
Personal responsibility for your mind, your emotions, your spirit and also your body.
0:49:00.079,0:49:03.830
And that you always remain empowered.
0:49:04.280,0:49:10.309
It would be important to me to promote this more in the sense of education or
0:49:10.393,0:49:17.080
also in seminars that teach teachers to promote,
how to promote the self-responsibility of the students.
0:49:18.960,0:49:25.050
Yes, and hopefully also contributed with this episode of RTalk a little bit,
0:49:25.739,0:49:31.700
because I think it's also important that colleagues like
you and I talk to each other about these issues,
0:49:32.250,0:49:38.900
exchange experiences and communicate
transparently and openly with each other.
0:49:41.650,0:49:43.590
Open communication is always good.
0:49:45.460,0:49:49.280
We've always upheld 'We agree to disagree'.
0:49:49.383,0:49:53.230
I love that sentence of yours that you said to me for the first time in 2009.
0:49:53.650,0:49:55.780
You don't always have to agree.
0:49:56.019,0:49:59.730
You don't always have to take leave in total harmony.
0:49:59.823,0:50:02.500
You can also have heated discussions.
0:50:02.583,0:50:08.110
It doesn't always have to be love, peace, joy, pancakes.
0:50:08.650,0:50:10.310
That doesn't always make sense.
0:50:10.840,0:50:17.540
You can also simply go into the resistance and into
the discomfort and really stand for your values.
0:50:18.980,0:50:26.820
Yes, and such spaces are great to open up where you
can get along without misunderstood political correctness,
0:50:28.010,0:50:31.070
can open up and talk tacheles.
0:50:31.369,0:50:35.650
Even if something comes out wrong in the wording.
0:50:36.030,0:50:40.219
With an open heart, the other hears this and will react immediately.
0:50:40.489,0:50:43.730
Then you can correct it instantly together with each other.
0:50:43.849,0:50:50.210
But as you said, transparent, open communication is a basic requirement.
0:50:51.949,0:50:54.710
Janina, thank you very much.
0:50:54.889,0:50:56.809
I wish you a nice day.
0:50:58.510,0:51:01.180
Tell me: how old are your children now?
0:51:02.869,0:51:06.040
The little one will soon be five and the big one is already seven.
0:51:07.849,0:51:10.850
And both already attuned to Reiki?
0:51:12.560,0:51:13.490
(laughs) No.
0:51:14.610,0:51:16.170
OK. Still waiting for them...
0:51:16.230,0:51:18.160
They can then decide for themselves.
0:51:18.930,0:51:19.580
Just like you ...
0:51:19.580,0:51:20.620
No, they don't have to.
0:51:20.680,0:51:23.170
I'm... quite open.
0:51:23.480,0:51:25.150
But they should decide that for themselves.
0:51:25.233,0:51:28.170
I don't want to decide for them to do this.
0:51:29.929,0:51:31.100
I understand that well.
0:51:31.100,0:51:37.170
Another very interesting topic for a Reiki teacher training:
0:51:38.030,0:51:41.810
How to deal with initiations with children? Very interesting.
0:51:42.170,0:51:45.730
So! We'll save that for next time. Greetings.
0:51:45.813,0:51:47.160
I say bye-bye.
0:51:52.099,0:51:53.630
I think she's already gone.
0:51:53.713,0:51:58.440
Thank you for watching, dear viewers.
0:51:59.480,0:52:04.660
I hope you liked it. And that you check us out again with the next RTalk.
0:52:04.940,0:52:07.950
Of course you can also subscribe if you want.
0:52:08.420,0:52:09.739
Then you will be informed.
0:52:10.280,0:52:10.940
And goodbye.
Arno Greter, Switzerland, 
