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Welcome to RTalk, the place where we agree to disagree.
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Today my guest is Bhante Sukhacitto, a monk currently in London.
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Our topic is 'Bypassing'.
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Hello Bhante. I am greeting you.
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I’m sorry we have to speak in English of course.
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I hope I did the introduction in English, did I?
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You did.
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Lucky me. Normally Bhante and I, we speak in German. Most of the times at least.
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Bhante is German originally. How are you today and you are in London, aren't you?
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No, I’m not in London. I’m in the southwest of the county of Devon
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which is southwest, the wet part of England.
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It's about 150 miles, 200 plus kilometers from London.
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Okay, fine. I wasn't all that wrong but a little bit wrong.
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I’d like to introduce you, Bhante, to our viewers first.
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Dear viewers Bhante Sukhacitto has been an ordained monk of the Theravada tradition since 1990
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and a teacher in Insight Dialogue for 12 years.
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Bhante is somewhat of a traveling monk in my eyes
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since I have seen him travel to different continents.
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He is teaching or was teaching in North America in Southern parts of Africa and of course all over Europe.
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Originally he became a monk in Thailand where he stayed at a monastery back in the 1980s.
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In his experience, to quote him, interpersonal meditation, insight dialogue
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is an extremely helpful aid for the development of wholesome qualities.
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It bridges the gap between traditional silent meditation and our everyday lives including relationships with other people.
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Bhante and I have known each other for 20 years.
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Bypassing has been a subject I think ever since we got to know each other
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although the terminology 'bypassing' I didn't know at all until very recently.
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So, Bhante is that fair enough an introduction, have I forgotten?
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Maybe it should be clear but maybe it's worthwhile to mention that I’m a monk in the Buddhist tradition,
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because some people might wonder, you know, You didn't mention that.
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I beg your pardon and I’m glad you corrected that.
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This is how one works when one takes things for granted.
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Your robe of course would be somewhat of a giveaway for most people
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but you're quite right not everybody necessarily knows that.
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I welcome you, Bhante. How did we get to talk ...
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how did we choose the word 'bypassing', the topic? Can you remember, can you say a few things about that?
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Yes, I can indeed.
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You know, my memory fails more and more. I have more and more senior moments in my life
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but I can remember that quite clearly because when you invited me for this RTalk, you basically invited me to think about a topic.
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A topic which is very alive for me since a number of years and I have talked on this topic quite a bit
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in different locations ... not so much quite a bit. By end of this month I give another talk on this topic.
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It's called 'spiritual bypassing'.
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For me as a Buddhist monk, of course, spiritual practices,
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meditation, cultivation of one's own life, character, mind-consciousness and so on, is a central part.
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But bypassing, of course, is much more ... spiritual bypassing is just, you know a fraction of our life.
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Bypassing can happen in all areas of our life and for me it seems so important
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to life in general to look at those areas where we don't want to look, where we want to avoid and ...
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you know, when I hear that word bypassing I think about a bypass operation, a heart operation.
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My father had it also in the early 2000s which is extremely helpful. Something is blocked
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and you put in a new ... I don't know ... way around it that it flows again.
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So, it's not per se all that negative, I think, you know. It has to be really investigated deeply and
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in what areas do we do this consciously, in what areas are we blind?
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And of course, when we look at our blindness how can we know about our blindness? It's blind. We don't know.
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Sometimes the help of the other, the good friend, the Reiki master, our partner, our children, our parents
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our good friends can be so helpful, can't they?
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Yeah, I agree with you, we often have blind spots.
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Bypassing can be very tricky and I’m glad you use the terminology 'spiritual' bypassing.
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Originally, we said or you suggested the terminology spiritual bypassing
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and I then more or less insisted on reducing it to 'bypassing' only.
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You already brought it up it is something which happens in many aspects of life.
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In fact, the terminology 'psychological bypassing' also exists.
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In fact, I looked it up a moment ago and here is what the psychologist would say:
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"Ironically self-actualization or self-actualizing people are the ones who suffer here.
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Due to taking this bypass away from reality. Instead of just plain living they analyze life psychologically."
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I guess in terms of spiritual bypassing only the last word changes, 'psychologically' is being replaced by 'spiritually'.
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In my research I came across a very interesting young woman.
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I was shocked to see that she's only the age of my sons.
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Her first well-known video goes back to 2014. She was only 30 then.
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She spoke about a spiritual bypassing. Her name is Teal Swan.
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I have taken a few video clips, maybe we look at some of them.
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...
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She spoke about that already some time ago and she put it in a holistic context.
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She didn't reduce it just to spirituality. She said,
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very often we bypass spirituality through physical activities.
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So that's like a cop-out.
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Interestingly, in one passage she said - and I wonder Bhante whether you see that similarly -
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she was referring to the very catholic tradition of a confession.
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She said, that can be a way of bypassing by simply going to, you know, the boot where you do the confession
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and unload your sins, your ill doings there and say three prayers, walk out and it's all forgotten.
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What do you say, is that practice also a form of bypassing?
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Could be.
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But maybe before I try to answer that question you were pointing to,
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maybe allow me just to say when I use the word 'spiritual',
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people might misunderstand in terms of limiting it only to religious, spiritual practices.
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By spiritual I really mean the development in our whole life, you know, holistic approach to life:
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how do we grow in life? How do we use life to learn to develop more wholesome qualities?
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It's not just, you know, when you pray or meditate
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or do some kind of ... you know, go to church or visit spiritual centers or go on retreat, on a fast or whatever.
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I really mean how do you live your life? How do you develop your spirit basically?
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Which direction are you going in your life? That's what I mean spiritual, you know,
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because often spiritual practices or religious practices are so limited to formal acts of practice
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but most of our life, we just live life, right? Engage in our profession, do things
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and this is what the main spiritual practice I think is. You know?
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So, in our Buddhist monastic tradition we have also this practice of confession.
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Every fortnight the monks get together and we recite our rules and before we do that we confess to each other.
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But it's not done in the spirit of, you know, that the other person forgives us per se but
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it's really the invitation to look at your life - in a way of the topic of bypassing -
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acknowledge what I have done wrong? Where I have transgressed rules?
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What was my unskillful behavior?
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So, I share this with my monk brother and there's a formula in our Buddhist scripture language,
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Pali language, it is called where actually you acknowledge the mistake,
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the wrongdoing you have done and you also have the clear intention of not doing it again.
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Basically, you acknowledge something unskillfully done
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and I have this sincere intention not doing it again, you know.
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Unless it's a very heavy offense the other person just listens compassionately and confirms.
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Something like that. So, in the catholic tradition, I think, often it's understood like, you know,
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you get the English word' absolution' or something?
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You know, you give your sins ... You have to change, you know?
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To delve always on the past and the mistakes that doesn't help, you know?
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Yeah.
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You have to have a sincere effort to change.
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I think that you're picking up on ...
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a definition of bypassing which has to do with avoidance. With neglecting. With pushing aside.
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And you're saying when you do, let me call it 'true' confession and that happens also in Catholicism, of course,
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you repent and you become clear about your transgression.
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You don't delegate the absolution to an outer authority.
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You're actually staying within yourself.
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I haven't been to a booth in a catholic church for a long time during confession.
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But in principle, I think it is a wonderful practice.
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Because in modern times, more modern times, my last confessions I did - not do as a schoolboy -
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but later when I was a young man, it was a dialogue and I found it had a - almost like a good psychotherapist -
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the priest asked the right questions inducing me to reflect but at the end of the day
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he didn't really comment 'oh bad' and now it is resolved
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but it's a dialogue very much in the in the sense which you explained.
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Maybe I can just jump in here? Maybe I can encourage you as a good friend go again do it again!
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(laughing)
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I’ve got you! I come to you, Bhante.
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We've had so many walks together which have served a very similar thing.
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You're picking up you earlier something important!
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A good friend will actually reflect also back to give you light onto your blind spots.
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One very common bypassing 'technique' or ...
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daily occurrence is when people meet each other and it's simpler to simply agree with their rubbish
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by either not commenting it or just nodding it. That's much easier done than
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actually saying, oh, let's think about that! Let's talk about that because I’m not sure right ...
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Excuse me, René, we were interrupted again you noticed that?
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Yeah.
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...
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I forgot actually where we were interrupted.
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That's okay. Let me do something else then. I have prepared these videos.
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Should we look at one of them and look at the definition of this young lady and then we continue our conversation?
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Let's have a look.
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Spiritual bypassing is the cancer of the spiritual world.
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It's a disease that is run rampant in both religious and non-religious circles.
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Spiritual bypassing is the act of using spiritual beliefs to avoid your unmet needs deep pain and unresolved wounds.
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Spiritual bypassing is a form of avoidance.
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Because it's a form of avoidance, it's a form of resistance.
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Spiritual bypassing is in fact the shadow side of spirituality.
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The spiritual beliefs of any spiritual tradition,
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be it Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, New-age, Islamic or even self-help
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They can provide ample justification for living in a state of inauthenticity.
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They can all provide justification for avoiding the unwanted aspects of one's own feelings
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and state of being in favor of what one considers to be a more enlightened state.
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Even the non-affiliated, unanimously beloved saying 'keep calm and carry on' is a glorification of spiritual bypassing.
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Some examples of spiritual bypassing include:
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angrophobia,
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exaggerated detachment,
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emotional numbing and repression,
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blind or overly tolerant compassion,
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weak or too porous boundaries,
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using cognitive reasoning to escape emotional feelings,
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debilitating judgment about one's negativity or shadow side,
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devaluation of the personal relative to the spiritual,
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avoidance of physical day-to-day life,
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delusions of having arrived at a higher level of being
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and my personal least favorite:
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over emphasis of an attachment to the positive
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to the degree that there is a high level of resistance to anything negative.
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How did you feel with this video clip?
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I’m used to be very critical, René, as you know
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and I have to say what this woman shared I have to agree.
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100 percent. Or maybe 98-99 percent.
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She spoke a bit fast for my taste, you know,
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and in that short clip a lot of information which is really valuable but I must say, she is right. I agree.
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Yeah. And I of course do her injustice because I show a 60-second clip of a seven minute video
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which I will put in the description of this video of ours,
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so people can go and look it up and maybe revisit another clip later on.
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I found it interesting, also her very end where she's criticizing what many people call 'positive thinking'.
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She's basically saying if we are ...
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There is a way of escapism into positive thinking where
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we basically just substitute one positive sounding ideology or belief system with a negative sounding one,
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but we haven't really changed anything. We're just relabeling something unresolved.
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So how do you ... where are you in terms of ... I mean you exude,
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with the robe you exude peacefulness, harmony. All these wonderful ...
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- serenity - all these wonderful attributes ...
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and very often people tend to take rescue in these attributes but in an artificial way, in an escapist kind of way.
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So, you must have had a lot of thought about these things.
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Yeah, first of all I want to point out that whatever she or other people mention,
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what can be bypassing or spiritual bypassing doesn't have to be it! It depends.
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For one person it might very well be bypassing and for the other person it's just the right way
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to meet life or to meet the challenges of life or to do useful things, skillful things.
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Yeah, so you know, whatever list you mentioned was bypassing or spiritual bypassing can be,
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it can be or it cannot be.
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It depends on the circumstances, on the person and your motivation and so on.
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...
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Like what you were pointing to earlier, people project a lot into other people, right?
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You as a Reiki teacher, master, you know for me as a spiritual monk
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and of course it's totally understandable that at times in life or maybe many times in life
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the problems, the suffering, the challenges are just so much!
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I mean, just look what happened since you know nearly two weeks now, you know,
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this horrible war in the Ukraine, you know. People are shattered, you know.
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For such a long time, not counting the conflict in Yugoslavia or former Yugoslavia maybe,
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in Central Europe we were more or less protected from a war which was so close.
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So, people are not used when such a big challenge, such huge suffering is so close, you know.
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Shen we had this huge wave of refugees coming into Europe that was one thing.
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But now these are refugees coming from so close, you can say.
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So, when suffering gets so immense, so overwhelming, a natural tendency to be not overwhelmed is,
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I want to shut off! I want to escape. Whatever, to listen to beautiful music, to a nice prayer,
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positive thinking, meditating, watching my breath, doing a Reiki treatment who knows what!
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You know, to bear with a huge amount of discomfort and being overwhelmed.
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Totally understandable. But when this is our main strategy to meet difficulties in life,
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as soon as things get difficult I turn to the positive thoughts,
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I go to my place in nature, I do this or that, I go to the prayer, you know,
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then it can become bypassing, I think.
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I think the operative word is 'can be'.
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Sorry, I interrupted you. Go on.
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In a way I must say I’m very grateful. We know each other long enough,
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we have sometimes periods where things are going pretty well in life. That's for me right now the case.
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But I’ve had long periods of very difficult patches of life,
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being depressed, you know, having to deal with a lot of inner conflicts, what I call the torn heart.
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You know what I’m referring to. I don't need to put out all my dirty laundry here in this talk, you know.
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But we all have our challenges.
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In a way these challenges I consider often as the growing area of our life, our best teachers.
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If things would always go nicely, smooth, happy, you know,
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happy-go-lucky or something like that, we wouldn't grow so much, I think,
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in terms of understanding, compassion, wisdom, kindness, sympathetic joy
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and equanimity, you know, being balanced in life.
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You said something very interesting referring to the Ukrainian war, I want to show something
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which just 10 minutes ago before we started speaking, I saw in the newspaper as a headline:
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"This emotion about one's own peacefulness ... we are horrified by the war against Ukraine
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but some of us celebrate above all our own moralistic purity."
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So we bathe ourselves - this is my take of what this says - we bathe ourselves in our
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moral, ethical, superior role and we point fingers at others almost.
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So ... this to me seems to be an acute bypassing which happens
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not just amongst spiritually inclined or aware people but
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politicians ... the people at large at this moment and it ties in with what you said,
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this escape to positive thinking, this escape and these projections onto you representing
0:22:36.110,0:22:45.760
a intact spiritual presence and then projecting all kinds of assumptions onto you.
0:22:47.360,0:22:54.360
You know what I mean with the more moral high road being taken currently by a lot of people
0:22:54.480,0:23:03.960
with respect to the war and almost buying themselves a good excuse for not making clear statements
0:23:03.960,0:23:08.410
where they are like you did earlier where you clearly said
0:23:09.610,0:23:16.150
you are in favor of peace and that the war basically is a bad thing happening.
0:23:17.990,0:23:24.590
So, how often do you meet people within your own community, amongst ...
0:23:25.110,0:23:34.720
within the monastery, within monks where you see the same escapism from the real world today?
0:23:36.780,0:23:40.300
Let me before I try to answer that question, just say
0:23:40.860,0:23:47.890
I think bypassing can easily happen - or more easily happen - when we take sides.
0:23:48.660,0:23:52.060
This is my position, this is right, that is wrong.
0:23:52.290,0:23:55.150
Let me quote ...
0:23:55.650,0:24:00.200
a very famous Buddhist teacher who just passed away a few months ago, Thich Nhat Hạnh.
0:24:01.270,0:24:05.330
The quote goes like this, it's short, it's about peace:
0:24:05.710,0:24:08.210
"The situation of the world is like this.
0:24:08.590,0:24:12.370
People completely identify with one side, one ideology.
0:24:12.960,0:24:17.838
To understand the suffering and the fear of the human being who thinks differently,
0:24:17.840,0:24:20.660
we have to become one with him or her.
0:24:20.660,0:24:24.850
To do so is dangerous - we will be suspected by both sides.
0:24:25.600,0:24:30.558
But if we don't do it, if we align ourselves with one side or the other,
0:24:30.560,0:24:33.800
we will lose our chance to work for peace.
0:24:33.890,0:24:37.430
Reconciliation is to understand both sides."
0:24:40.000,0:24:43.310
I think this is a very, very important principle.
0:24:44.260,0:24:50.720
The word 'reconciliation' I know, René, you are so active in the Reiki world for reconciliation and in other areas in life.
0:24:52.280,0:24:58.460
So, coming to your question, what do I experience in monasteries, in monastic communities
0:24:59.280,0:25:05.130
and again I don't have to look much outside I just have to look here, in my own heart.
0:25:05.720,0:25:12.840
This lifestyle of the Theravada Buddhist monk is ideal, it's a perfect scenario for bypassing.
0:25:14.720,0:25:20.870
You know you are basically free from responsibilities in terms of relationship, dealing with money ...
0:25:22.160,0:25:25.920
You don't have to engage deeply with other people, you have to follow a monastic routine.
0:25:26.640,0:25:30.430
You know, you're protected from women most of the time.
0:25:30.450,0:25:38.480
I mean, there's so many areas with our lifestyle if we keep to the rules, perfectly avoiding things.
0:25:38.740,0:25:43.140
So, potentially perfectly bypassing things, especially spiritual bypassing also.
0:25:44.800,0:25:49.020
Many people of course say, you know, the way you live is totally weird,
0:25:49.630,0:25:53.760
you must get sick, you know, not living a relationship, not having sex,
0:25:54.560,0:25:57.760
not having money directly or dealing with money.
0:25:59.240,0:26:06.310
I have to say - and again I’m not excluding myself or point to somebody else - René does this,
0:26:06.670,0:26:10.398
you should be aware always that three fingers at least point to yourself.
0:26:10.470,0:26:13.420
So, it says often more about yourself than about the other person.
0:26:13.510,0:26:15.580
So, if I say that monk has that problem ...
0:26:16.530,0:26:20.650
monastic communities, I would even say spiritual communities,
0:26:20.840,0:26:26.220
are often the perfect place for very traumatized people to come to.
0:26:27.060,0:26:32.840
And especially monastic communities I would say, or very dedicated spiritual people
0:26:33.690,0:26:37.530
are likely to come from a very wounded place in their lives, you know,
0:26:38.050,0:26:41.120
distressed, disturbed, whatever, traumatized.
0:26:44.800,0:26:52.790
So, it's not easy in my experience to use this lifestyle, to live this lifestyle, without bypassing.
0:26:52.790,0:26:58.718
You really need to be very attentive, very careful and I would say you need
0:26:59.040,0:27:03.750
spiritual friends, good friends who point you to the blind spots where you do bypass
0:27:03.750,0:27:06.970
where you don't see, where you avoid unskillfully.
0:27:07.110,0:27:09.220
I don't know if that answers a bit your question.
0:27:11.040,0:27:18.718
It does. And actually it occurred to me that I had the privilege of working with a lot of nuns
0:27:18.720,0:27:22.940
in Catholicism as a Reiki teacher in monasteries.
0:27:23.320,0:27:33.358
Of course, they are micro societies which are a reflection of society at large with a different emphasis.
0:27:33.720,0:27:39.660
You just you just reminded me of that and something very profound happened in me
0:27:41.000,0:27:48.390
when you spoke about monastic or life in monastery,
0:27:49.840,0:27:55.270
where you describe to some extent that the challenges with bypassing and so on
0:27:55.570,0:28:02.930
are the same if not more because of the environment, because you have a setting
0:28:03.080,0:28:13.220
which induces you to do a degree of escapism from one's own trauma and then you said that
0:28:13.610,0:28:18.170
maybe this is for many people the very reason why they chose that life,
0:28:18.750,0:28:23.038
it reminded me of the many nuns I had the privilege with and
0:28:23.040,0:28:33.040
it opened my heart to look at nuns, monks with a compassion which I wasn't quite aware of
0:28:35.090,0:28:45.240
before you spoke about primarily about yourself but representing, I’m sure, many other nuns and monks
0:28:45.240,0:28:50.050
who are in a similar situation and at the end of the day ...
0:28:52.150,0:28:55.570
compassion is almost like the reverse of projection.
0:28:57.600,0:29:04.718
I think this is such a an important observation in today's time and age and with the
0:29:04.720,0:29:13.710
conflict going on that we need to point the finger at ourselves like you said and find compassion
0:29:14.480,0:29:19.110
for anyone out there and for anyone in here.
0:29:23.360,0:29:28.390
Where does bypassing or non-bypassing, where does war, where does peace start?
0:29:29.360,0:29:30.720
It's always here!
0:29:32.130,0:29:36.480
So, as long as I am ... you used the word 'resistance' before
0:29:38.460,0:29:42.478
... in one of the quotes I think, that word 'resistance' appeared.
0:29:43.170,0:29:50.070
One of my main practices in life is to work with resistance. You know, with not liking things.
0:29:50.720,0:29:55.270
I really like there's a teaching you can say from the Buddhist tradition which says,
0:29:55.760,0:30:04.280
suffering equals pain - pain as an umbrella term for any difficult situation,
0:30:04.690,0:30:08.640
physical, psychological, you know, pain - multiplied by resistance!
0:30:10.400,0:30:17.280
So. In other words, I repeat: suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance.
0:30:17.840,0:30:20.200
So what happens when there's no resistance?
0:30:21.470,0:30:23.420
The pain evaporates?
0:30:25.360,0:30:26.100
No.
0:30:27.470,0:30:28.240
Tell me!
0:30:28.240,0:30:31.530
No, the pain is still there. There's no resistance.
0:30:31.600,0:30:35.840
Like I have a lot of knee pain because of my osteoarthritis, for instance.
0:30:36.360,0:30:40.478
If I have a lot of resistance to that, I mean, they have huge suffering! You know?
0:30:40.480,0:30:46.760
But if there's no resistance the pain is still there, but the mind, the heart is basically free from suffering.
0:30:46.870,0:30:50.520
I accept it. No resistance. I’m kind to it maybe.
0:30:50.620,0:30:53.630
Oh, thank you knee that you are still at least the way you function now.
0:30:53.990,0:30:58.420
Even if it's not hundred percent or like it used to be five or ten years ago, you know.
0:30:58.460,0:31:00.440
Even Reiki, you know, doesn't do miracles ...
0:31:02.040,0:31:05.450
and of course you disagree ...
0:31:05.780,0:31:11.440
No, no! I agree. I agree.
0:31:12.480,0:31:16.000
If anything I would add ...
0:31:16.990,0:31:19.380
'maybe' that is true.
0:31:21.000,0:31:25.660
Maybe miracles happen sometimes.
0:31:27.010,0:31:32.660
But then we would have another conversation about the terminology of what is a miracle?
0:31:33.710,0:31:35.740
Let's leave that for another day.
0:31:35.810,0:31:38.398
I thank you very much for having joined me.
0:31:38.400,0:31:41.150
Sukhacitto, we're coming to an end.
0:31:41.770,0:31:47.200
I think towards the end you touched on a very important point, I’m not going to show any more videos.
0:31:47.420,0:31:51.840
I will send you the link to the whole video I hope you will - I am sure -
0:31:51.920,0:31:56.370
discover that this young lady said a lot of things which you also said today.
0:31:58.030,0:32:04.820
But I’m not going to close off without giving you an opportunity to have a final say.
0:32:06.400,0:32:14.060
Thank you René for inviting me for this talk or exchange and I would like to close with
0:32:15.120,0:32:19.680
encouraging each one of you - basically I speak to myself of course -
0:32:19.890,0:32:29.360
do have ... how to say ... the courage, the humility, the honesty, the integrity
0:32:29.440,0:32:33.060
to look at those areas in your life where you don't want to look,
0:32:33.470,0:32:37.280
that you don't want to - you know - experience, where you don't want to feel.
0:32:37.840,0:32:45.280
Because there's a saying, you know, ‘The quietest place in a hurricane is the eye of the hurricane'.
0:32:45.740,0:32:51.250
So maybe the most peaceful place in life is in the midst of our suffering,
0:32:51.830,0:32:58.100
in the midst of our challenges, in the midst of those things those very things we want to avoid.
0:32:58.390,0:33:03.800
I just want to basically encourage you to empower yourself
0:33:04.090,0:33:11.960
you have the ability to do it, many skillful things: spiritual teachings, Reiki, prayer - whatever might be helpful for you.
0:33:12.020,0:33:18.400
Find those helps, find those practices, those things which are helpful and useful in your life.
0:33:18.400,0:33:21.070
That's maybe my final statement.
0:33:21.460,0:33:24.800
Thank you very much. Wise words for our closing.
0:33:25.520,0:33:28.070
Thank you, Bhante, for having joined me.
0:33:28.650,0:33:31.340
I’m looking forward to seeing you soon again in person.
0:33:32.540,0:33:33.510
Hope so!
0:33:33.820,0:33:38.850
If we're still alive, not sure. Thank you so much, René. Best wishes.
0:33:39.440,0:33:40.480
Thank you.
0:33:40.640,0:33:48.558
Dear viewers, thank you very much for viewing. We'll see each other in three weeks’ time.
0:33:48.740,0:33:53.620
Please subscribe and help us continue with the RTalks.
0:33:53.950,0:34:00.620
If you want make a donation, very welcome, also for our translations of the videos.
0:34:00.760,0:34:02.980
Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
0:34:04.650,0:34:06.650
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