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Hello and welcome from Greece.
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I am welcoming today Esther Veltheim and our topic is:
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But ... WHY!?
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Hello, Esther, welcome!
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Hello, René.
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It's a pleasure to have you here.
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I've been waiting for this moment a long time.
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Thank you.
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Esther, I'd like to introduce you to my viewers first so they have an idea of who you are.
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Dear viewers, Esther is actually my Reiki teacher from Reiki 1.
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We just, before the recording, spoke about that.
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It was, I think, the year 1990 in Hong Kong.
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So, I have a long and very close relationship with Esther.
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She is the creator of the BreakThrough System and she is
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co-founder of the International BodyTalk Association (IBA).
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She resides in Europe - Brexit permitting, that is -
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and currently I believe she is en route somewhere
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and she teaches advanced interactive workshops in BreakThrough.
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She also runs BreakThrough instructor training programs.
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Esther is the author of 'Beyond Concepts - The Investigation of Who You Are Not'
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and of the book 'Who Am I - the Seeker's Guide to Nowhere'.
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My Connection with Esther, as I said, she is my Reiki teacher
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and together with her husband actually, John Veltheim,
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she and he have been our trainers,
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my wife's and my trainers to become Reiki teachers in the early nineties.
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They are the founders of The Reiki Network and in 1996 they
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co-wrote and published a milestone book, 'Reiki - Science, Metaphysics and Philosophy'.
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That's Esther.
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So this morning when I said to Mischa, my wife:
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"Give me three words, quick, don't think, describing Esther, she said,
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multilingual, traveler and a close friend."
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So welcome, Esther.
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Thank you. That was very sweet.
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Thank you.
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I think I do all right with the introduction or would you like to add something?
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No, that was already a lot.
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Well, we have, of course, a very unusual title to our RTalk today.
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But ... WHY!?
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And of course, I think ... it was Esther's suggestion for the title, mind you.
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And of course, I think that 'why' it's the most stupid question in the world
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because 'why' doesn't answer 'how' and is not solution orientated.
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So we're going to explore a little bit why we have that title.
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That's obvious. But why? And maybe you want to expand on that a little bit, Esther.
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When we had our conversation a few days ago
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in preparation, what are we going to talk about?
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You said: "A lot of the work I'm doing today, revolves around deconstructive thinking".
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And I said, okay, we can take that as a title.
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And you thought no, you'd rather have: 'But ... Why!?'
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So, why do we have this title?
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Well, I'll give you a long answer.
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A while ago, I heard a term describing the child's mind.
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They used the term 'lantern mind'.
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And the lantern mind for me was just such a wonderful
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description of how the child's mind functions.
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It immediately made me think of when I was living in Bavaria,
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you know, with my little friend Mala.
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Once a year they have a lantern festival and we would wait
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till nightfall and all the children and families would go down to the
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little square in the village with their homemade lanterns.
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And then this big pool of light.
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We walk around the village singing lantern songs and along the riverside.
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And ...
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That image immediately came to me.
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And then the other image she uses is for the adult's mind,
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which is the 'spotlight mind', where we're more, well,
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narrow minded, a bit more focused in, you know, just everything around us is isolated.
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We focus in a much more narrow way.
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And so ... I thought that's a really good way
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of describing, I think, the work that I do, my focus.
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So why does ... how does that happen?
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Forgetting any scientific reasons, how does that happen that ...
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that we go from lantern mind,
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- where we have this great peripheral taking everything in -
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to this narrow, what happens to us?
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Also the way children ask questions.
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So children ask questions from the lantern mind, from a place that's ...
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that doesn't have a lot of answers already.
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Everything's fresh and they're curious.
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Particularly adults will say things and then a child will respond: But why?
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Oh, don't remind me, please.
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I know! So we like, shut up ...
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It can be a lot. But still, a child really, truly wants to understand. Yes?
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Whereas we have so many understandings and
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like we go on Google and we will - with an understanding we already have -
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we will ask why and how.
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So we're not ever really asking clear, undiluted questions.
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We're always starting from a place of I know something.
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And then how and why.
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And then we have that, what you call it on the Internet,
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that how it's filtered according to our prejudice.
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The algorithm that filter out our preferences and will feed us exactly the information ...
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our craving ego probably needs or
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or whatever the driving engine, our subconscious mind, whatever it is.
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Yeah.
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But you know, I still see a validity in questioning the value of the question 'why'.
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Because ... Okay, it invites somewhat to an analytical kind of looking at things.
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And I found, also in my daily work I find that this very
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often is confusing people more than anything.
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Mostly it doesn't help them to get on with their lives and
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find solutions, which make their life more comfortable,
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which makes them more happy.
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So the question 'why' in itself ...
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Tell me a little bit about deconstructive thinking. What do you mean by that?
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I know that your work revolves around ...
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or maybe more precisely ...
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has the aim of creating breakthrough moments for individuals
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where they have like a ... mind opening away from this narrow minded focus
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and seeing beyond the filters and the blinkers and the limitations
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which we all have, given by society, by growing up, by many, many influences where we ...
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have inherited and been programmed with the mindset which we have.
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So breakthrough is obviously a goal or a very important ...
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Talk to me about breakthrough in relationship to why do we need
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to ask the question 'why' to get through to a breakthrough.
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So.
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Well ...
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We all have much, much more in common than we do differences,
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although it would appear when we look out there the differences are just huge and ...
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eclipse everything else.
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But what we all have in common is that we ...
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there's an expression ...
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"Addiction is the only prison where the locks are on the inside."
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And it seems to me from really as tiny children,
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we received this hand-me-down legacy of how to live life.
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So this is a really important part of growing up that we need to
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learn certain parameters and certain ways of being.
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But the majority of these are really black and white,
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and they've been handed down and become more and more rigid over time.
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So whether they're religious, political, personal,
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it's an accumulation of all of those we're handed down.
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And our mind then starts to take them in.
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I remember watching - I've never had children -
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but watching my little friend as she went from
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two, two and a half to three
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and seeing the shifts just happening in her eyes
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and as she began to - it's terrible to say - but to be programmed, as it were.
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Yes, there was a shift.
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And then more concerned about what people were thinking.
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And you saw things changing.
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The spontaneity wasn't the same, although she was still really small.
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And so I looked at ...
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So basically, in BreakThrough we focus on what is it that
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makes life appear such a struggle?
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So you look at little children, I think, in India watching little children on the
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garbage heaps, you know, trying to protect their little siblings from rats.
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And yet they're making it a game and they're playing.
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And somehow or other, they're still in the very worst of circumstances.
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A child still has that magical realm it inhabits.
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And then adults will say, well, yes, but then we have responsibilities.
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This is part of the programming. Yes?
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So, there's an idea about this is what needs to happen. This is what will happen.
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This is how it should happen.
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And so we start to live from these recipes for living, these really rigid expectations.
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We have expectations for ourselves, expectations for others, expectations of life.
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And they are all our ‘shoulds’ and shouldn't and ‘cannots’.
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And they are huge, huge lists.
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And it might seem oversimplifying, but they're the mother of all our defenses
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because we've learned this is how I should be.
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So they're alienated from what's natural to us.
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And oftentimes what we're taught is right and what we're taught is wrong,
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contradicts our nature, you know, what comes naturally to us.
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And so we live a life where being ourselves becomes a liability.
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And much of the time we're mistaking expectations for goals and dreams and something positive.
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And when I work with people and work with looking at exploring their expectations,
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usually there's a whole list of reasons why those expectations are very valid and why they need them.
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And they all boil down to keeps-me-safe!
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So they are black and white thinking.
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And yet the idea is keeps-me-safe.
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Let me interrupt you.
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If you if you change that, then people are unsafe.
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Then they feel - or they're afraid of, I don't know - that they're vulnerable,
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that they're losing their earthing, that they're losing their grounding,
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their safety net of their environment. Isn't that true?
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Well.
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That's what we're told is the safety net - yes? - the familiar.
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So, I was thinking the other day, you know, 'The Power of Now', Eckhart Tolle's book is so popular.
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You know, I think I would entitle my book 'The Power of Ambiguity'.
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You can imagine how few people would buy that.
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But really, so all our expectations are geared against the unexpected, against the unknown.
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Yes?
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Against ambiguity.
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Which are actually all against change.
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Unless I'm controlling the change.
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Unless ...
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And so these are all ...
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What do these represent?
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Change, ambiguity, the unexpected - what do they all represent? Life!
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So all our expectations guard against life.
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So what in BreakThrough the focus is, is not just to give people just 'aha',
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it's really ... and it's not to get rid of anything.
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It's not to change anything.
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And that's the problem. So we decide, well, I'm going to have a lot of ...
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I'm going to make a list of power of positive thinking
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to superimpose on top of these rules.
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But that's just another list of expectations.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So now, all we need to do is to see what's there, you know,
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what is it that's fueling the fear?
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What does it look like?
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And when we explore it in BreakThrough, you get to see
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for every positive, seeming positive conviction, there's one that contradicts it.
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And so the mind is full of contradictions.
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Give me an example, please.
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Now I'm trying to think of one.
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Yes. So ...
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Well, the first one that comes to mind is.
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So people should be polite!
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Yes.
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A simple one.
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Where do we get when people are impolite?
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We have war and struggles all the time.
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They must be polite.
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So it should be like this.
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And the progression of thinking is until it is.
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So why do you need to be that way?
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Yes?
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Because when people are impolite, I feel that.
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It comes down that people make me feel bad when they're rude.
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So you should be polite!
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Basically what they're saying is, until your behavior changes
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I can't ... I can't feel better.
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And I'm naming the conditions of your behavior at the same time.
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You have to follow those rules so I feel comfortable and safe with you.
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So in other words, you need to limit yourself.
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You need to change yourself before I can change, before I can feel better.
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And of course, there's the huge part of that is you-make-me-feel.
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So all the time saying, responsibility is in your hands,
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somebody else's hands for my feelings.
0:17:31.170,0:17:34.950
So in BreakThrough as one explanation I give an analogy.
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So we all live from these expectations, which are basically overreactions to life.
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They're defending against life.
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So you think if you went to a doctor and let's say you have
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National Health, everything is paid for and you're just going for a regular checkup.
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And he says, well, I don't know, René, no, you're looking a bit something strange,
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I really feel I need to do a whole bunch of tests.
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But I feel fine!
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Well, just to put my mind at rest, you know, just let me see.
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He does all tests known to man, EEG, MRI, T-test, blood tests.
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All the while you're thinking, my goodness, you know.
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But you have time and, you know, it's on National Health.
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He says, so now in a few days, when the test results come back, I'll phone you.
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So, you're not worried, you feel fine.
0:18:35.430,0:18:37.840
So then the phone call comes and he says,
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well, René, the results came in
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and I think you should come into my clinic for me to talk to you about this.
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So now you're getting a little worried.
0:18:49.986,0:18:56.310
So you go in. He says, well, René, you know, the tests that I could redo, I redid
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and I've gone over and over and over everything.
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But all the tests confirm the same thing.
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And look, I know that you think you are, man, but all these
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tests show that actually you're a bunny rabbit.
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So now what would you do in such a situation?
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If the result was that he would say, I'm a bunny rabbit,
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I'd probably laugh at him and say, it was nice knowing you and leave him.
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Right! I mean, every now and then someone says, I'd sue him! (laughs)
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Then you know, they really need Break ... No!
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So.
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Right.
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So why wouldn't you?
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Why wouldn't you stand up and try to prove that you're a man?
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Why wouldn't you do that?
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Good question.
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Because I'd feel the cause of what he has given me is so ridiculously stupid
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that I'm not going to buy into the stupidity of that.
0:20:00.416,0:20:05.769
And in a way, what I'm answering to you is I feel superior to
0:20:05.836,0:20:10.150
this stupidity, and I would take the high road and leave him.
0:20:10.960,0:20:12.339
But simple answer.
0:20:12.670,0:20:14.259
Why wouldn't you go ... (crazy)?
0:20:15.190,0:20:20.769
And simple answer, he says You're a bunny rabbit, why would you really not care?
0:20:23.710,0:20:25.180
Because I don't take him serious.
0:20:25.720,0:20:28.160
Well, isn't it because you know you're a man?
0:20:28.960,0:20:31.550
Oh! Oh, I forgot that!
0:20:31.660,0:20:33.420
Yes. You're right.
0:20:33.486,0:20:36.759
I feel pretty confident in my masculinity.
0:20:36.826,0:20:38.200
Yes, now that you mention it.
0:20:38.559,0:20:39.990
Now that I mention it.
0:20:40.150,0:20:40.940
(Laughter)
0:20:41.380,0:20:43.013
So. Yeah. So that's it.
0:20:43.079,0:20:43.579
So.
0:20:43.660,0:20:47.019
So it's an analogy, but it's a simple example.
0:20:47.086,0:20:49.990
So when we know something, you know,
0:20:49.990,0:20:54.160
whether philosophically speaking might be something different, but
0:20:54.450,0:20:58.290
when you know something, you don't feel a need to prove it.
0:20:59.509,0:21:00.009
Yes.
0:21:01.250,0:21:06.680
So then when you need to prove something, I mean, in a ...
0:21:09.109,0:21:11.900
reactionary way, what is that saying?
0:21:14.190,0:21:14.970
...
0:21:16.460,0:21:19.130
Maybe I'll tell you a real story, because ...
0:21:19.310,0:21:21.150
Answer the question first.
0:21:21.539,0:21:22.039
Okay.
0:21:22.230,0:21:23.520
Keep simple on track.
0:21:24.000,0:21:26.130
Sorry to interrupt you, but keep on track.
0:21:26.549,0:21:27.990
No, go ahead.
0:21:28.619,0:21:29.640
Ask again, please.
0:21:30.150,0:21:35.200
So why do you not feel the need to prove something you know,
0:21:35.440,0:21:36.690
that you're confident in?
0:21:40.440,0:21:44.480
For that reason because I feel comfortable. I feel relaxed.
0:21:44.670,0:21:45.299
Relaxed.
0:21:45.809,0:21:49.980
So why would you feel the need to prove otherwise?
0:21:50.309,0:21:52.440
Oh! If ...
0:21:52.760,0:21:58.920
if what I was confronted with would violate that which I'd know for sure
0:21:59.010,0:22:05.460
and feel confident about, if that was threatened, then I would go into a defensive or
0:22:05.730,0:22:09.970
into some mode or the other into a reactive kind of mode.
0:22:10.500,0:22:11.000
So.
0:22:12.740,0:22:16.849
Need to prove: wherever there's a need to prove,
0:22:17.210,0:22:21.290
it's an indication, it's proof that there is doubt.
0:22:21.970,0:22:25.030
Yes. Insecurity. Doubt. Yes.
0:22:25.369,0:22:32.319
So an overreaction is always accompanied by a need to prove
0:22:32.559,0:22:38.010
whether it's a 'should!' that I'm saying to myself or a 'should!' that I'm saying out there.
0:22:38.950,0:22:46.569
So overreaction is always need to prove which is always proof of doubt.
0:22:47.109,0:22:49.480
Which means I'm lying to myself.
0:22:50.799,0:22:51.880
And I'm lying to you.
0:22:53.109,0:22:53.609
Yes?
0:22:54.460,0:22:58.509
And all expectations are overreactions.
0:22:59.440,0:23:05.289
And you think how many expectations the human being has, no matter who they are,
0:23:06.720,0:23:11.970
about every little thing that has to do with life and themselves.
0:23:12.750,0:23:17.849
And all those expectations are rigid black and white 'shoulds'.
0:23:18.940,0:23:23.559
And they all, all the time, are things we are trying to prove.
0:23:24.710,0:23:31.020
Which tells you we live pretty much all the time from a place of overreaction,
0:23:31.260,0:23:33.049
which is a place of defense.
0:23:34.119,0:23:38.450
And then we decide, well, now I'm going on a spiritual path.
0:23:40.616,0:23:43.859
It's time to meditate. With our expectations.
0:23:44.700,0:23:47.670
And we do our Yoga. With our expectations.
0:23:47.736,0:23:48.990
Nothing will ever change.
0:23:49.440,0:23:50.250
Right!
0:23:50.670,0:23:56.789
So the point of de-constructive work, is that rather than
0:23:56.856,0:24:04.420
trying to cause something else to happen, something to change with the goal
0:24:04.470,0:24:12.060
that it's going to look like this ... we look at the beliefs that are triggering all of that.
0:24:12.170,0:24:16.109
It's like coming back to: This is how it should be!
0:24:16.176,0:24:18.460
So the question is, and if it was?
0:24:19.090,0:24:22.500
Then it's a series of questions that we ask
0:24:22.880,0:24:27.640
that get you to ... that put those ‘shoulds’ into perspective.
0:24:28.230,0:24:35.050
The whole focus of the work is simply to show what is stored in the myelin sheath.
0:24:35.050,0:24:39.100
You know, the nerves have like a sheath around them.
0:24:39.303,0:24:40.529
And all the ...
0:24:42.180,0:24:46.259
all the programming is held in that myelin sheath.
0:24:46.859,0:24:51.630
So this is why when we have a realization, there's a (exhales in relieve) feeling
0:24:51.670,0:24:57.150
and we often feel a streaming happening, because what's in the myelin sheath
0:24:57.150,0:24:59.440
just needs to be acknowledged.
0:24:59.759,0:25:02.810
We don't have to get rid of it because it's not true.
0:25:03.690,0:25:08.270
We just have to see what is it that's impacting on us.
0:25:08.740,0:25:13.946
That seeing, that understanding and the compassion that comes with it,
0:25:14.069,0:25:15.119
it does all the work.
0:25:15.779,0:25:20.940
So it's a very ... It's totally anti conditioning, really.
0:25:21.660,0:25:22.160
Yeah.
0:25:22.589,0:25:24.059
I followed you.
0:25:24.630,0:25:30.029
Let me ask something, because you use you use the word expectation quite liberally.
0:25:30.096,0:25:34.240
And the way you spoke, it had a ...
0:25:35.910,0:25:42.690
a connotation that it was pregnant with a charge of some sort or the other.
0:25:43.170,0:25:48.059
But for most people and in the business world, for example,
0:25:48.900,0:25:56.970
you know, the year-end budget is expected. A woman who is expecting.
0:25:57.330,0:26:04.600
So the word 'expectation' is not always - and I don't want to go into the linguistics,
0:26:04.630,0:26:10.049
I'm trying to understand and explore what you have said -
0:26:10.349,0:26:16.200
but the word expectation, the way you used it, was in a way negatively connotated.
0:26:16.266,0:26:26.110
Whereas there are good ideals. Certainly I think everybody would agree that
0:26:26.110,0:26:36.329
'thou shalt not kill' is a pretty sensible guideline, a good code to follow.
0:26:37.170,0:26:40.676
And it's not automatically an expectation. You know what I'm saying?
0:26:40.920,0:26:44.270
Well, unless a tiger is jumping at you.
0:26:47.430,0:26:51.720
Yes. But that's where the difference is between ...
0:26:53.590,0:26:59.300
I'm a convinced pacifist. I was on a walk this morning and we spoke about that in a different context.
0:27:00.809,0:27:08.540
I find that very often, particularly men in their masculinity today,
0:27:08.880,0:27:14.840
they deny themselves access to their potential of aggressiveness
0:27:15.480,0:27:22.950
because it's politically incorrect, because it's also not what they and what I want to do.
0:27:23.940,0:27:26.460
I don't want to kill a tiger.
0:27:26.526,0:27:28.720
I don't want to kill another person.
0:27:30.269,0:27:34.920
But I'd like to have still access that if that happens,
0:27:34.986,0:27:41.609
which you just described, if my life was under direct threat and
0:27:42.269,0:27:46.259
the lives of those I'm responsible for, then I would like to
0:27:46.326,0:27:51.059
have at least access to the potential of my aggression and not
0:27:51.126,0:27:57.210
have that access closed for political correctness reasons.
0:27:57.809,0:27:58.710
You know what I'm saying?
0:27:59.099,0:27:59.599
Yes.
0:27:59.666,0:28:05.309
So we'd like to have those expectations and until we don't want them.
0:28:05.430,0:28:11.519
So what I'm saying is that all expectations are detrimental to us,
0:28:11.586,0:28:13.589
because they're global.
0:28:13.656,0:28:16.140
When we have a 'should', it's global.
0:28:16.950,0:28:22.030
And it impacts on us even when we think, no, no, no, I no longer believe that,
0:28:22.030,0:28:23.579
it's still impacting on us.
0:28:24.089,0:28:27.059
And it's different, you know, anticipation.
0:28:27.126,0:28:30.029
There's an excitement, there's a 'oh, anything's possible'.
0:28:30.359,0:28:35.880
And expectation is, you know, it's one thing to have a healthy goal.
0:28:36.290,0:28:40.070
A healthy goal would be when it doesn't manifest,
0:28:40.410,0:28:43.380
then we look for another opportunity, yes?
0:28:43.380,0:28:44.320
We find better solutions.
0:28:44.320,0:28:46.559
But in general the expectations ...
0:28:46.626,0:28:51.680
So we talk about lowering and highering our expectations, which is ...
0:28:51.960,0:28:54.120
Expectations are expectations.
0:28:54.200,0:28:58.690
They're saying, in the future, this is how I want it to be.
0:28:59.349,0:29:02.009
And if it isn't, this is how I'm going to feel.
0:29:02.076,0:29:06.980
So we already have a recipe for something that's never, ever going to happen,
0:29:07.050,0:29:09.530
which is the future being here now.
0:29:10.040,0:29:14.390
So we look at life through these expectations
0:29:15.040,0:29:21.670
and we're doing exercises with the Power of Now, but through these expectations,
0:29:21.670,0:29:26.740
because if I do all this, then I'll be spiritual, I'll be a better person.
0:29:27.369,0:29:33.400
So it all boils down to these good and bad ideas that are also handed down.
0:29:34.099,0:29:34.599
So.
0:29:34.869,0:29:38.740
So actually with expectations we have to be very careful.
0:29:39.309,0:29:43.750
Most of them are detrimental. Anticipation, that's really different.
0:29:44.650,0:29:46.450
I am with you.
0:29:47.260,0:29:51.660
This morning when I went onto the net to research a little bit, prepare myself,
0:29:51.726,0:29:53.980
I'd like to show you a quote I found.
0:29:54.046,0:29:55.740
I'll put it up on the screen.
0:29:56.410,0:29:58.220
Bertrand Russell said:
0:29:58.350,0:30:02.950
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
0:30:04.059,0:30:09.190
Bertrand Russell He was a great influence on me when I was a teenager.
0:30:09.970,0:30:13.420
And isn't that also what you just said?
0:30:14.289,0:30:17.619
You know, the anticipation versus the expectation.
0:30:18.970,0:30:25.529
And he uses different words, but the dynamics behind that is very similar.
0:30:25.900,0:30:30.549
With that sentence, I interpret that he is cautioning against
0:30:31.569,0:30:36.490
our convictions being the product of our experiences,
0:30:36.556,0:30:44.380
and then we sort of project that experience as a given, as a law almost
0:30:44.460,0:30:50.410
into the future and decide therefore the future will be X, Y and Z because the past was like that.
0:30:50.650,0:30:59.130
And therefore, we are completely locked-in in the self-fulfilling prophecy of that thinking.
0:31:00.060,0:31:02.289
That's what I take out of that sentence.
0:31:02.940,0:31:04.880
(Both talking.)
0:31:05.550,0:31:09.000
Wherever there is a rigid 'this is how it is' ...
0:31:09.640,0:31:12.849
wherever there is a 'this is how it is' about anything,
0:31:13.450,0:31:14.240
we're locked in.
0:31:14.559,0:31:17.259
There's no possibility of anything else.
0:31:17.326,0:31:19.990
We're blinded to alternatives.
0:31:20.289,0:31:22.780
So that's the spotlight mind.
0:31:23.710,0:31:31.750
So that's where you work on with everything you do nowadays with BreakThrough.
0:31:33.609,0:31:36.549
You know, let me put the broader screen on because there's a
0:31:36.616,0:31:42.130
nice picture of Ramana Maharshi in the background there.
0:31:43.660,0:31:50.030
And of course, a central figure in the Advaita philosophy, which I know is dear to you.
0:31:51.180,0:31:51.680
And ...
0:31:53.410,0:31:57.460
Actually, let me surprise you with a little surprise.
0:31:57.526,0:32:02.980
Let me share something which I found which you may or you may not know.
0:32:05.890,0:32:07.960
Let's see whether I can get it up.
0:32:08.849,0:32:13.799
Because there is very little life footage.
0:32:24.690,0:32:29.700
... the Ashram of Arunchala drew crowds of devotees on September 1st
0:32:29.830,0:32:34.330
to mark the completion of 50 years since Ramana set first foot on the sacred soil
0:32:34.450,0:32:36.270
of this historic mountain shrine.
0:32:36.700,0:32:41.760
From far and near they flocked the darshan of the holy sage who by the severest austerity
0:32:42.100,0:32:47.280
and profound contemplation has attained spiritual wisdom and serenity unique in the country.
0:32:47.780,0:32:52.000
Thousands draw comfort from his mere presence for he neither preaches nor blames
0:32:52.060,0:32:56.350
setting at ease all those who come to him by the essential goodness he radiates to all around.
0:32:56.870,0:32:59.150
A good man in a troubled world.
0:33:00.050,0:33:03.710
(Indian music playing.)
0:33:12.630,0:33:16.570
And the word that stuck out to me there is 'attained'.
0:33:17.160,0:33:18.779
And that's a problem.
0:33:18.846,0:33:21.390
We think there's something else we have to get.
0:33:22.049,0:33:28.230
And yet there's just too much here, just covering up what's natural to us.
0:33:29.009,0:33:34.280
I remember going to see my teacher, Ramesh Balsekar ...
0:33:35.309,0:33:36.900
It was monsoon season.
0:33:36.966,0:33:39.420
And he said, oh, this is my slack period. There was no one there.
0:33:39.486,0:33:42.420
For nine days I visited him even on a Sunday.
0:33:42.599,0:33:46.680
He sat there, he hadn't put his false teeth in.
0:33:46.746,0:33:49.000
And he sat there with his wife Sharda.
0:33:49.109,0:33:52.500
... He wanted to talk about his time in America
0:33:52.570,0:33:57.410
and she kept on slapping him on the knee and going: "That's not how it was".
0:33:58.150,0:34:03.380
All my time with him ... what I came away with was
0:34:03.720,0:34:05.310
he's so human.
0:34:05.609,0:34:06.960
He's so human.
0:34:07.799,0:34:13.900
And the problem for most of us, because of all these expectations, is
0:34:14.090,0:34:21.710
we go through the spiritual life thinking we will escape our humanness,
0:34:22.660,0:34:25.310
we'll suddenly talk in a particular way.
0:34:25.780,0:34:30.640
No, you know, and I don't think of Nisargadatta, you know, the chain smoking and ...
0:34:32.260,0:34:36.179
looking at Ramana, a body all contorted, you know, in a lot of pain,
0:34:36.246,0:34:41.489
and, you know, that they were still deeply, profoundly human.
0:34:42.539,0:34:48.060
But we're trying to throw away the baby with the bathwater, as Nisargadatta would say.
0:34:48.630,0:34:49.640
...
0:34:50.940,0:34:56.090
It's an important point. I see that in spiritual circles very often.
0:34:56.140,0:35:01.820
Actually it's something very often ... Today when I hiked, somebody said to me,
0:35:01.820,0:35:08.099
how can it be that there are egos or dissonances in the Reiki community?
0:35:08.166,0:35:12.389
You people, you should be above these quarrels.
0:35:12.690,0:35:16.280
And of course, my answer was, says who?
0:35:16.949,0:35:20.960
And the person looked at me and she said, Well, actually, says I.
0:35:20.960,0:35:24.119
I said, well, precisely. That's what your projection is.
0:35:24.186,0:35:25.739
That's what your expectation is.
0:35:25.806,0:35:30.870
But I, for one, and the Reiki teachers I know,
0:35:31.130,0:35:37.440
none of them ever have said that they are not human anymore, that they can levitate and ...
0:35:37.506,0:35:42.180
There's still this human aspect which you just addressed.
0:35:42.630,0:35:47.969
Tell me, Esther, the Advaita philosophy and your work today ...
0:35:50.250,0:35:54.070
I assume that your work today is
0:35:55.079,0:36:01.820
a conclusion or a natural evolution for you personally
0:36:02.610,0:36:08.846
stemming from that philosophical background. Would you agree with that?
0:36:08.913,0:36:11.150
Would you expand on what I just said?
0:36:13.619,0:36:16.179
It was a profound influence on me.
0:36:17.590,0:36:19.670
And I know we're limited for time.
0:36:22.519,0:36:28.100
Really, BreakThrough stemmed from my own desperation,
0:36:28.100,0:36:32.239
trying to help myself and understand.
0:36:34.670,0:36:41.000
Well, it happened I had a neurotoxic poisoning and suddenly I couldn't do my job.
0:36:41.066,0:36:42.199
I couldn't earn money.
0:36:42.266,0:36:45.710
I was with someone I barely knew who was supporting me.
0:36:46.429,0:36:47.389
All these things.
0:36:47.456,0:36:49.579
And most of all, I couldn't read anymore.
0:36:49.646,0:36:51.540
My whole nervous system was damaged
0:36:52.160,0:36:57.320
and in one fell swoop, all my identities were ripped away.
0:36:57.710,0:36:59.119
This is like, who am I now?
0:36:59.480,0:37:00.370
...
0:37:02.040,0:37:06.580
Then I thought of my uncle, my mother's brother, who was tetraplegic,
0:37:06.700,0:37:10.070
paralyzed in much, couldn't talk, couldn't move.
0:37:10.136,0:37:14.030
And he was just, to me, one of the greatest teachers.
0:37:14.096,0:37:17.230
And I said, well, I would never have thought of him as useless.
0:37:17.296,0:37:19.610
Why am I thinking I'm useless?
0:37:20.420,0:37:22.820
It was shortly after that, I couldn't read much,
0:37:22.886,0:37:25.660
but just a sentence from Ramana Maharshi.
0:37:26.579,0:37:29.369
And it just made sense to me.
0:37:29.460,0:37:33.150
It's like, Oh, so I'm not this and I'm not that and I'm not ...
0:37:33.630,0:37:38.039
So, BreakThrough is really exploring what is not.
0:37:38.269,0:37:42.599
You know, so it's taking ... it's deconstructing.
0:37:42.666,0:37:45.059
It's taking away all that stuff that we say,
0:37:45.389,0:37:49.390
this is how I should be, this is how I am. I know myself.
0:37:50.090,0:37:56.150
To just ... And more and more, what are the experiences? They are still overreactions!
0:37:56.810,0:38:03.080
But ... we're not the slave to the mind. The mind starts serving us.
0:38:03.510,0:38:11.340
So it's a system that works to refine the way we use the mind so
0:38:11.406,0:38:14.740
that it will do the job it wants to do, which is to serve us.
0:38:15.150,0:38:17.940
Whereas for most of us, we're just enslaved to it.
0:38:18.690,0:38:23.429
And everything we do is - even spiritual pathways - is slave to the mind.
0:38:23.760,0:38:25.240
...
0:38:29.489,0:38:35.159
Esther in the conversation - and that's the last thing and then we will wrap up.
0:38:35.226,0:38:38.429
But maybe you want to expand on ...
0:38:39.570,0:38:45.599
I did an RTtalk some time ago with a Feldenkrais teacher, with Wendy Kann.
0:38:46.170,0:38:54.150
In our conversation last time, you expressed parallels
0:38:55.320,0:39:02.110
or compatibility of your work with BreakThrough and the Feldenkrais,
0:39:02.370,0:39:06.340
Moshe Feldenkrais' approach to healing, to life.
0:39:07.590,0:39:14.910
Explain to me a little bit with an emphasis that people who have an idea about Feldenkrais
0:39:14.970,0:39:20.250
would get further insight in your BreakThrough work.
0:39:21.239,0:39:25.640
My first experience of Feldenkrais was about 25 something years ago.
0:39:26.150,0:39:31.490
And at the end of it, "Oh, this is the physical version of BreakThrough!"
0:39:31.540,0:39:36.900
I was so excited and I went to the teacher. I said: "I do something",
0:39:36.966,0:39:40.880
I didn't explain anything, "this is like the physical version of it!"
0:39:40.946,0:39:44.230
And she turned to me, she said: "Well, we should teach together."
0:39:45.059,0:39:47.210
She's been a very good friend ever since.
0:39:47.276,0:39:49.619
So, yes, Feldenkrais.
0:39:50.159,0:39:50.760
Brilliant.
0:39:51.239,0:39:56.730
Because to me, Feldenkrais very much works with the nervous system.
0:39:57.389,0:40:00.929
And it's always questioning.
0:40:00.996,0:40:06.000
So we'll do a movement and then say, so how about trying it this way?
0:40:06.066,0:40:07.380
How about trying it that way?
0:40:07.619,0:40:11.610
And suddenly you discover something that you thought you were
0:40:11.676,0:40:13.619
incapable of doing a moment ago,
0:40:14.159,0:40:19.110
you're moving but from the whole body and from a place of space.
0:40:19.980,0:40:22.289
Well, clearly, the space was always there.
0:40:22.860,0:40:23.360
So.
0:40:23.760,0:40:25.590
But we were unaware of it.
0:40:25.656,0:40:26.610
So it's the same ...
0:40:28.050,0:40:32.309
very briefly put, but it's the same with BreakThrough.
0:40:32.550,0:40:38.790
You're discovering a spaciousness in the way of being, in the way the mind functions,
0:40:38.870,0:40:42.660
rather than just all this clutter and this rigidity,
0:40:42.770,0:40:45.510
which is so reflected in the human body.
0:40:45.539,0:40:49.380
So as we get older, we're constantly rigidifying
0:40:50.159,0:40:54.210
directly reflected in the way our minds are so rigid.
0:40:54.276,0:40:59.790
So our expectations are held in the myelin sheath reflected throughout the body,
0:40:59.910,0:41:04.560
and we can only respond in very rigid ways.
0:41:05.099,0:41:09.340
So we begin more and more to move in isolations.
0:41:09.900,0:41:13.769
We begin more and more to think in an isolated way.
0:41:14.369,0:41:19.130
And move physically also. It is not just psychological.
0:41:19.570,0:41:24.830
So, we start ... we don't use our full capacity.
0:41:25.230,0:41:27.760
So it's the same, we don't use our mind fully.
0:41:27.760,0:41:31.769
We're in one little corner imprisoned there.
0:41:32.219,0:41:33.599
That's not the whole mind.
0:41:34.679,0:41:36.360
And the mind is not the enemy.
0:41:36.426,0:41:38.380
And there's nothing to get rid of in it.
0:41:38.639,0:41:40.699
Does it see how it functions?
0:41:40.766,0:41:43.420
It's the same as there's nothing bad with the body
0:41:43.750,0:41:46.199
but pay attention to how it's functioning.
0:41:46.829,0:41:48.119
Is there another way?
0:41:48.360,0:41:52.230
So this would be really BreakThrough is: there has to be another way!
0:41:52.679,0:41:53.820
It was how it began.
0:41:53.886,0:41:57.630
And to me, Feldenkrais is the same: there has to be another way.
0:41:58.329,0:42:01.139
Feldenkrais, a brilliant work.
0:42:01.206,0:42:05.090
Just, you know, I think the two should always be done together.
0:42:06.510,0:42:10.769
I don't think I could really work on the mind well without doing Feldenkrais.
0:42:11.099,0:42:15.269
And this is, I think, a very important conclusion.
0:42:15.336,0:42:20.410
And we're getting to the end because listening to you
0:42:22.050,0:42:26.370
about BreakThrough and about some of the things you explained,
0:42:26.909,0:42:30.360
it was using the mind and that's fine.
0:42:30.426,0:42:34.469
It's a great tool, but it's only a tool.
0:42:34.536,0:42:38.309
And we are more than just mind and emotions.
0:42:38.760,0:42:45.220
We are actually also a physical being and like what you said toward the end now, that ...
0:42:46.889,0:42:50.270
those two components - and there are few others more -
0:42:50.770,0:42:54.890
in combination with each other are very valuable.
0:42:54.890,0:43:01.920
And I think it would be a pity if anyone is claiming that
0:43:01.986,0:43:12.690
one is the only system or the only method to attain a goal which ...
0:43:13.410,0:43:17.159
the goal being more liberty, more happiness,
0:43:17.226,0:43:18.470
more open mind.
0:43:18.599,0:43:20.400
Or to lose interest in goals.
0:43:21.539,0:43:29.030
And eventually the letting go of goals in the traditional sense.
0:43:29.070,0:43:31.170
Losing interest. We can't let go.
0:43:31.440,0:43:33.930
So the losing interest can only just happen.
0:43:34.500,0:43:36.900
And the mind is a really important tool.
0:43:37.260,0:43:39.659
It's part of Feldenkrais mind-body.
0:43:41.039,0:43:44.309
And we're using the mind to ...
0:43:46.400,0:43:48.070
to make a healthier mind.
0:43:48.430,0:43:49.610
Basically, it is Jnana Yoga.
0:43:52.340,0:43:53.960
Thank you very much, Esther.
0:43:54.170,0:44:00.019
Is there one more thing you would like our viewers to leave with,
0:44:00.320,0:44:02.090
your final parting message?
0:44:03.380,0:44:04.789
No, I can't think of anything.
0:44:06.079,0:44:09.500
Just yes, to be gentle with ourselves, you know, not to take
0:44:09.566,0:44:13.730
life so seriously and to understand that we are all ... it doesn't
0:44:13.796,0:44:18.650
matter whether we are a dictator or who we are, that we all have
0:44:18.716,0:44:23.269
the same pains, you know, the same hurts, the same struggles deep down.
0:44:25.159,0:44:29.090
And all ... with all, you mean every human being?
0:44:29.570,0:44:30.739
Every human being.
0:44:30.949,0:44:34.309
So this is, for me, the key in BreakThrough,
0:44:34.489,0:44:38.969
you come away, there's a compassion that happens for yourself, for others.
0:44:39.440,0:44:41.900
That compassion that does all the work.
0:44:42.469,0:44:43.820
There's nothing you need to do.
0:44:44.329,0:44:45.980
The compassion does the work.
0:44:46.699,0:44:47.420
And ...
0:44:49.340,0:44:54.829
for all the people, for everybody very often, of course, there is a 'but' following
0:44:55.159,0:45:03.739
and I think your work is focusing much on getting rid of the 'but' and accepting everybody. Full stop.
0:45:03.806,0:45:06.920
Not the 'comma, but' but full stop. Everybody.
0:45:07.699,0:45:09.110
And we mean everybody.
0:45:09.340,0:45:11.210
Now it's a just acknowledging the 'but'.
0:45:12.409,0:45:15.349
Not getting rid of them or accepting them, just seeing them.
0:45:16.900,0:45:19.159
Seeing them for what they are.
0:45:19.670,0:45:21.079
Not true.
0:45:23.360,0:45:24.590
Excellent, Esther.
0:45:24.739,0:45:25.880
Thank you very much.
0:45:26.179,0:45:30.320
I say goodbye to you for now, and we'll be in touch.
0:45:30.829,0:45:31.849
Dear viewers,
0:45:31.916,0:45:32.809
bye-bye, Esther.
0:45:33.650,0:45:34.470
Thank you, René.
0:45:36.469,0:45:38.659
Dear viewers, I thank you for viewing.
0:45:38.960,0:45:40.760
Please do subscribe.
0:45:41.599,0:45:44.179
You will see where in a moment.
0:45:44.570,0:45:50.230
And I hope you're looking forward to the next edition of RTalk in three weeks’ time.
