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Welcome dear viewers welcome to RTalk, the place where we agree to disagree.
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Today's topic is 'Compassion'.
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Quite timely, I think looking at the world out there at the current state.
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My guest joins me from Berlin, Germany and it is Gerald Blomeyer.
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Hello Gerald.
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Hi René.
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I don't want to disagree about compassion.
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And if we do disagree then we do it with a lot of empathy.
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Okay, excellent. I will open my heart all the way.
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You are a really surprising discovery for me,
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because even now before we started the filming you took me by surprise
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by already bringing up something which I had in my mind without me having said a word.
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Well, all I can say is obviously ... We've never met personally. We've spoken a few times,
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you know, via Zoom ...
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but it's interesting that we seem to get on well together.
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It's a real discovery to me and it's a great honor.
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I’d like to introduce you to my viewers, Gerald, but before I do this:
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Dear viewers, yesterday, I made a small test filming with Gerald. I do this with my guests to check out lights and technical stuff.
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Gerald immediately started to tell me something about his take of 'compassion'.
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I interrupted him very, very rudely,
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because I don't want to discuss these things prior our very spontaneous conversation which we're having now.
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Gerald, I took the liberty of actually transcribing and translating
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into English what you said yesterday or started to talk about.
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I would like to introduce you now and then pick it up where you left it.
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For that purpose I would like to have your permission
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to share what you said and share with my viewers the translation when you started to talk.
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You can think about it for a while I give my viewers a few data about you to introduce you.
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As you can tell, dear viewers, we don't know each other very well.
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Actually we started to communicate about three weeks ago.
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In preparation of this conversation today, I went onto Gerald's website to introduce him to you.
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I have to say that I found a very colorful, rich life described on Gerald's website,
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a very self-determined man is presenting himself there.
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So, I cannot do justice with the few things I picked out and I recommend you go and read for yourself.
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You will find the website of Gerald’s in the description of the video.
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What I did pick out is the following: Gerald Blomeyer is of German-English descent,
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born in London into a diplomat's family.
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At the tender age of 15 he returned to Germany where he studied architecture.
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In 1970 Gerald had his first direct contact with Buddhist philosophy
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even meeting the Dalai Lama back then already, in 1970.
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In 1984 his son Fritz was born.
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Throughout that decade, the 80s plus minus, Gerald was busy as a university lecturer, a publisher and a filmmaker.
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He started studying meditation in earnest during that period and also got in contact with Reiki.
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By the time of the German reunification - that is '89, '90 -
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Gerald had been lecturing about city planning in more than 20 countries internationally.
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In 1991, Gerald meets his second wife Eva Etta Busch with whom he deepened his spiritual unfolding.
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15 years later, Eva got ill with cancer.
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She passed away at home in 2005 after a time of intensive care.
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For his grieving process Gerald left for India where he stayed for eight years teaching and studying Buddhism.
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He is back in Berlin since 2014 teaching meditation.
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He is also a coach, a consultant to corporations and notably a sought-after storyteller with his podcasts.
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So, Gerald, is this more or less okay? Would you like to add something and following this
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may I quote you from what you said yesterday?
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You may do whatever you like, René, it sounds perfect.
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Very perfect, thank you.
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I thank you, for your trust.
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Dear viewers, this is what Gerald said yesterday and I interrupted him so rudely.
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Have a look.
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"If we were to talk about Reiki, there are two sides for me, Gerald said.
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There is a Reiki that I came to know, where for the first time in my life,
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I felt that all the parts of me were dissembled next to each other.
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And where and when I decided this is what I want to learn.
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Then I practiced Reiki for several years, many treatments, until I became a Reiki master in 1991.
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A symbol workshop with Fokke Brink followed
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and Fokke introduced me to Eva Etta Busch.
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That was the love of my life.
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When we talk about compassion there are two kinds.
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First of all, the normal compassion which I knew up to that point
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and then one that came afterwards ...
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through this woman ...
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she opened my heart and the flow of love.
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And that is a different state."
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So, Gerald that's exactly where I would like to pick up, where I interrupted you rudely
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and you were about to explain and this is ...
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I have two issues on my mind and one was exactly this, the love, that two type of compassion.
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That is one of the things which keeps my heart and my mind busy for the last few weeks.
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So, you preempted it yesterday and I was very happy about it
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And I’d like you to continue where I interrupted you yesterday.
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It is ... it is always a question of opening your heart.
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Your compassion to look after other people is always very nice and you can be very charitable
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but the idea that you overflow with love,
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that means that something special has happened in your live.
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And Eva Etta opened my heart in a manner that ... I always introduced her not as Eva Etta but:
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This is the love of my life, because she opened me in this fantastic way.
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We had the feeling that when we came together we were connected with the universe.
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We ... I had three years of difficulty being in her presence without having a tunnel vision.
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Or, as they say, seeing everything through pink glasses.
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It was amazing.
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This has kept throughout my life since then.
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I have kept this open heart and it is a different way of looking at things.
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I really ... I have a teacher. He's the Dalai Lama.
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One of the things that he says is ...
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Home is where the people love you.
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Meeting Eva Etta was like coming home.
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But practicing Reiki was also like coming home.
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And practicing Buddhism was also like coming home.
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And I have the feeling, René, that because this meant something to you,
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you have a personal experience that you would like to share with us.
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Thank you ... that's a great opening because as I mentioned something occupied my mind.
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The people who know me will know that emails I mostly - practically always -
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end by saying "with love". Or just "love" and my name.
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So, the concept of love has been ...
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if you want like the 'overruling principle' in my life.
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And if I talk about love ...
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Actually, you know, the person back here whom you see a little bit
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he's representing, he's on the cover of my book which I wrote many years ago
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and that book is about the quest of the true meaning of love.
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For me that was like the governing principle and then more recently I started to feel, wait a minute,
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maybe to be more precise if I talk about love I’m not now referring to what one might
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interpret or define as erotic love between man and woman.
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I’m referring to what one might refer to as unconditional love,
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what the Greeks call 'agape'. They have different terms for the word love.
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What recently in connection with the situation in the Ukraine and Russia ...
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I felt like, maybe love isn't 'the' concept. Maybe it is compassion.
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I started to ask myself what is the difference between compassion and love.
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That was the question in my mind when you entered my life, Gerald, and started to basically
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answer this question or address this question with what you said.
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So, this is really where I am at, to answer your question.
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Do you get what I mean, where I am at?
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Of course, of course but you see if you ...
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take your life where you started, when you were in the womb of a person,
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you experienced love and compassion.
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This is the basis of your being. Without the love of your mother you wouldn't be here,
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without her caring for you.
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And this is really the basis of our life and this is what we can say,
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our job in life is to help other people and to support them on their way.
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I’m with you and ... You addressed me and you said when you, René, were in the womb of your mother
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and I’m fully with you, and the same thing is true for every other human being on this planet.
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This is it, this is it.
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You're now touching exactly at the point where my thinking started.
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How about people who do evil? How about people who kill other people?
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As you know, RTalks are about Reiki ... and about reconciliation.
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So, these things - particularly the reconciliation process where transgressions happen
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and the worst thing on the planet probably is genocide, is rape of people.
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There are hideous crimes out there committed by human beings who, like you said,
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were once in the womb of their mothers and were ...
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maybe already then not experiencing what they, in my opinion, were entitled to,
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by definition of creation. And that is the entitlement of being in that compassionate environment.
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So for the moment let's just take this conversation from here.
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How do I deal with ... you know I found it difficult to get in touch with unconditional love for certain people out there.
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Rather than taking current figures let me go back in history and take one man, Adolf Hitler, who
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stands for many of us as the impersonation of so much bad being done.
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And I found myself ... how can I truly get to the place of heart of hearts
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where I am feeling unconditional love for a person like that?
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And that's precisely the juncture where I ask myself,
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maybe I’m harping down the wrong path,
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maybe the right thing to think about is compassion.
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You know? So, I’d like you to help me. How do I find compassion
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in my heart, in my quest for people who intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally .... ?
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I profoundly am convinced that even the worst of the worst deserves that I get to that point in me
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where I am unconditionally loving that person where I’m feeling compassion.
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And also, what's the difference between empathy and compassion?
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Please.
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There's a lot of questions.
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So, from Hitler to you to all these things, well ...
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It's fascinating.
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From my point of view, I think the Dalai Lama summed it up very nicely when he said:
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"George Bush is a very nice man but I don't like his politics."
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So, you see you can differentiate between what the people do and saying this is what they are.
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This is what you're saying if you look at all forms of life you will love all forms of life unconditionally and equally.
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And then people do bad things. So you have to say: "You're doing something bad."
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You have to draw a line and you have to say:
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"This will not be tolerated. We do not want this.
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We do not want a war in the Ukraine. We want peace!
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And we want you to talk to one another."
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You see, the problem with the evil is always when you think that things are happening on the outside.
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If you believe that happiness comes from the outside,
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then you will believe that power will give you more possibilities to take over more happiness,
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be more powerful, be more whatever but certainly not be more compassionate.
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The key to all of this is in my mind seeing that on the basis we are one.
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And this is where Reiki comes in because it says 'universal life energy'.
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What is life energy?
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What is the difference between love and life energy?
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I think when you when you go on to that level you will say, I have to tolerate it.
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So, the Dalai Lama says:
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"You should look at your enemies as very special teachers.
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You can never learn patience if somebody doesn't annoy you."
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Somebody has to press the buttons and you have to be clear about what you want
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and every time something unjust happens you're forced to react.
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You're forced to say: I do not want war!
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I am going to do everything in my possibilities to say I don't want it!
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I’m going to send the people love so that they really realize what the basis of love is all about.
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And I understand that they too have been through the process of being loved.
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Power is of course always a great distraction, because it puts you in in a position to manipulate people.
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Yeah, I’m with you ...
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Yet it's one thing to say, I like George Bush, I dislike his politics and I disagree with him.
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I would find it very difficult to say, I like Adolf Hitler but I don't like his politics.
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There is like - and I’m pushing my point, I know that -
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and personally ....
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I had an experience in Germany, 15 years ago.
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I was invited as a guest of honor. My Reiki students invited me.
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We were a wonderful circle of spiritually interested, if not ...
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in the process of awakening. Wonderful people around me.
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The conversation was flowing freely and I don't know how but we came to the point of reconciliation,
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we came to the point of how everyone - and there are no exceptions - deserves ultimately to be reconciled with.
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So, this was sort of loftily flying in the air and I was in Germany, so, it wasn't very polite but it popped out of my mouth, I said:
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"So, ladies if the door would open now and Adolf Hitler walked in would we welcome him at our table?"
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....
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While in principle all these teachings are fine and wonderful I cannot help but ...
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I’m talking about myself, you returned the ball to me,
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I cannot help but delving deeply into the dilemma, the paradox in me and I’m not able to resolve it at all times.
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Well it's very simple. We have a local prison and there's a big sign on the outside:
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"Would you say 'good morning' to a person who murdered someone else?"
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Yes.
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Okay. So then you have your answer.
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You will say 'good morning' to every person.
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And this is the level of meeting a person on the level of life and things.
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It is not saying 'I really appreciate the fact that you murdered someone',
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but it's saying, 'as a person, as a ... living being I respect you.'
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I think the Tibetans who were imprisoned in China
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... some of them said, they were so worried and when asked why they were worried, they said that
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"we would lose the compassion for the people who are keeping us locked up,
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because we want to respect them on this level and if we don't respect them then we're not all-inclusive".
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Yes, I agree.
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I’m fully with you and ...
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Let's go back to your Hitler.
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You say: "I love everybody in the world" and then Hitler comes in, "except you!"
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This doesn't make sense.
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None!
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No, it doesn't make sense because you're saying, I don't love you, you've done things wrong.
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You've got to be, you know ... We've got to discuss this and say this is right and this is wrong,
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but you can't say I’m not going to love you.
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If you ask me, I’m quite amazed by the amount of people who did love Hitler if you see the films.
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It's amazing because he speaks with a completely different language, body language and intensity
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and the people reacted very positively.
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When he lost the war nobody was a fan of his. That was amazing.
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But he was carried, you see and if you take Mao Zedong.
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Mao Zedong was another charismatic leader and ...
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Somehow charismatic leaders must have had a past life or - if there are past lives -
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where they've done something good because otherwise they wouldn't be able to affect so many people.
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These are mass movements.
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But I think, you know, going back to the Ukraine we have to be quite clear.
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We do not tolerate this. We do not want war.
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And we can only say, every person who's part of a military machine must be quite clear
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that they are doing something really unjust.
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And they're responsible for their actions.
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This is something we have to say.
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So, what we can do is we can send good energy into these areas and we can ask that, you know,
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open our hearts and say we're going to share the loving energy with this.
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You know, in Germany people have gone crazy. It's as though they've forgotten
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what they were thinking about two weeks ago.
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You know they said, we don't want to have a very strong army.
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Now, they're saying, oh, we do want to have a very strong army.
0:23:52.890,0:24:00.010
Oh and what about what about all the poison that we're using on our land?
0:24:00.480,0:24:05.400
What are our farmers using? Oh yes, well, we have to use the poison now, too because, you know,
0:24:05.400,0:24:11.793
now we're investing in the military. It's as though Germany is running through a sort of temporary amnesia.
0:24:14.240,0:24:17.040
Yeah, you know ...
0:24:19.730,0:24:24.240
the difference between compassion and empathy ...
0:24:25.560,0:24:32.705
in German the word "Mitgefühl" would be rather empathy and
0:24:33.910,0:24:39.650
compassion would be rather "Mitleid" - at least according to some of the ...
0:24:40.230,0:24:42.320
I disagree. I disagree totally.
0:24:42.655,0:24:47.935
Hold on, hold on, hold on, we'll talk about your disagreement but ...
0:24:49.440,0:24:54.505
What I was driving at was - because I at heart of heart also disagree with that ...
0:24:56.420,0:25:04.800
But I looked it up and compassion is defined in the dictionary for example as
0:25:05.520,0:25:11.250
also pregnant with a desire to alleviate things.
0:25:11.245,0:25:13.135
Yes ...
0:25:13.680,0:25:25.010
It is a call for action whereas in empathy this call for action is actually not in the foreground.
0:25:25.680,0:25:28.764
Maybe these are subtle differences but ...
0:25:29.264,0:25:32.103
Not subtle, fundamental!
0:25:32.820,0:25:37.077
If we're talking about the current situation I think the call for action
0:25:37.247,0:25:43.042
like you rightly say, that we the people get up and say, hey, we don't want this!
0:25:43.209,0:25:50.185
And that we take action like ... and we are supporting the weak, the oppressed,
0:25:50.490,0:25:55.030
the people who have run away, we are opening a home for them and so on.
0:25:55.140,0:26:01.180
So, that's going into it the action and that would be more within the definition of compassion.
0:26:01.393,0:26:03.403
So, sorry, where did you disagree?
0:26:05.695,0:26:08.675
Empathy is feeling with someone.
0:26:08.930,0:26:14.410
So, René, has a stomach ache, oh, I feel with you. I’m so sorry for you.
0:26:14.665,0:26:21.720
That is what the Germans call 'Mitleid' and when you say 'Mitgefühl' and you want to do something
0:26:21.715,0:26:23.840
you say: "And I wish you that you get well quickly."
0:26:24.640,0:26:29.330
So, traditionally in Buddhism you say,
0:26:29.490,0:26:36.920
the nurses are one of the main people who are very empathetic and they feel with
0:26:36.920,0:26:40.130
all the suffering of their patients that they're looking after.
0:26:40.340,0:26:44.460
And then they have a burnout because they've given up all their strength.
0:26:45.130,0:26:49.920
This is where Buddhism says, no, you have to look after your ...
0:26:50.473,0:26:52.813
Only a full pot can pour.
0:26:53.550,0:26:57.032
You have to look after yourself first and then you can help.
0:26:57.240,0:27:00.880
And if you run empty, then you can't help anybody.
0:27:01.298,0:27:07.018
If you have to be looked after because you looked after someone else, that's extremely impractical.
0:27:07.510,0:27:12.240
Therefore, empathy is very good because we need to feel with people.
0:27:12.623,0:27:18.780
What is René feeling now? That is very important but that's not having compassion with you.
0:27:18.783,0:27:23.310
Compassion with you is: René is in a difficult situation and I’d like to help him
0:27:23.340,0:27:26.282
and I’d like to alleviate the whole thing.
0:27:27.160,0:27:31.300
I think this is really the key to say,
0:27:32.000,0:27:40.040
if you want to love and really open your heart, you're always going to be on the level of loving kindness.
0:27:40.534,0:27:45.500
Now, there's one further difference, one further thing that we should look at.
0:27:45.496,0:27:49.660
In Buddhism they say, the word love is extremely difficult,
0:27:50.225,0:27:53.250
because the word love usually has attachment.
0:27:53.633,0:27:56.783
If you have attachment it can't be pure love.
0:27:57.300,0:28:01.820
It can't be. Therefore, they talk about loving kindness and compassion.
0:28:02.033,0:28:05.740
And this is the level that you move on so that you don't get mixed up.
0:28:05.740,0:28:12.967
I’ve just fallen in love with this beautiful being. Good lord, this is not love! This is attachment.
0:28:13.528,0:28:16.900
So, this is something we have to differentiate between.
0:28:16.898,0:28:20.815
What are we talking about? Where are your feelings? Are you with yourself?
0:28:21.790,0:28:24.910
I think one of the most important things is to say,
0:28:24.910,0:28:29.560
if you want to love someone you have to have a good relationship to yourself.
0:28:30.000,0:28:34.400
If you want to be compassionate to people you should be compassionate to yourself.
0:28:34.698,0:28:36.928
Then people can believe you.
0:28:39.220,0:28:46.660
Yeah, this is exactly where for me the word 'unconditional' is so important.
0:28:49.230,0:28:57.190
At the end of the day, I don't think the labeling is important whether we call it this or that.
0:28:58.620,0:29:05.660
I think the dynamics behind it also with the intention which drives,
0:29:06.380,0:29:11.360
and I think the intention at the end of the day is rooted very strongly in ...
0:29:11.720,0:29:16.570
my Christian upbringing would say the conscience of a person.
0:29:18.170,0:29:22.870
And I give the benefit of the doubt to every human being on this planet
0:29:23.600,0:29:31.110
to have access to that same source, or that same state to use another word,
0:29:31.490,0:29:35.986
irrespective of their culture and their upbringing which of course
0:29:36.565,0:29:48.385
will have an influence on how they deal with that which comes from that source.
0:29:48.598,0:29:50.536
Okay. Okay.
0:29:52.415,0:30:03.517
I am not quite sure where we should continue to go with this conversation, because basically we agree.
0:30:04.070,0:30:09.085
And I think if we say ...
0:30:12.180,0:30:17.320
well, spread as much compassion and love by taking care of others' well-being.
0:30:17.320,0:30:21.550
I think that's a good motto for the day. We could always be happy with that.
0:30:22.660,0:30:28.860
Yes, I agree with you and I do have an idea where we go with the conversation.
0:30:28.910,0:30:34.740
The second issue, the second question I had in my mind which revolves around the future.
0:30:36.660,0:30:45.643
I have prepared a small video clip for us to talk about that. But just to complete ...
0:30:47.850,0:30:50.580
I found that ...
0:30:51.493,0:30:56.623
this current crisis has triggered something in me which took me by surprise.
0:30:57.160,0:31:02.778
I was always the first one, when Fukushima happened and a lot of things happened
0:31:02.970,0:31:10.000
to mobilize a lot of Reiki people and spiritually inclined people and people who work with energy
0:31:10.130,0:31:19.278
to do their thing, whether it's prayers or energetic work, whatever, to help resolve the unfolding of humanity,
0:31:19.280,0:31:23.758
for world peace, for the situation in Fukushima and so on.
0:31:24.260,0:31:29.980
The strange thing which occurred to me, this Ukraine crisis did not trigger that in me.
0:31:32.770,0:31:42.230
I was taken aback by an almost depressive kind of feeling of reflection
0:31:42.380,0:31:52.077
because ... what I experienced in me and around me was not complying with my usual behavior, with my expectations.
0:31:52.453,0:31:58.853
It triggered obviously something new and I needed to deal with that. I didn't ... I was uncertain.
0:32:01.720,0:32:07.927
I realized that for me to jump into action and do something
0:32:08.923,0:32:18.843
would not really meet the compassionate call for deep down ... take a position.
0:32:19.620,0:32:25.137
It would have been almost an escapism into activity.
0:32:25.605,0:32:28.928
And I came to the conclusion that
0:32:29.141,0:32:37.923
where I can contribute and what I find is very important is to work towards the understanding
0:32:37.940,0:32:48.830
that it is not the Ukraine, it is not Russia, it's not Germany, it's not Switzerland. It's actually all of us who are involved.
0:32:48.830,0:32:58.070
And more relevantly, it's you Gerald and me René and every individual viewer who is behind his screen now.
0:32:58.350,0:33:02.600
It's all of us. It's not 'them' who need to make peace,
0:33:03.520,0:33:09.580
yes, hopefully we can do everything and we need to call for action that a truce,
0:33:09.710,0:33:14.370
that the weapons are silenced as quickly as possible, of course.
0:33:14.785,0:33:22.650
But that's like a short-term remedy. In the long term something more profound is called for
0:33:22.650,0:33:27.758
and that is to come to reflect the situation
0:33:28.015,0:33:31.280
what have I contributed to the current state?
0:33:31.690,0:33:41.060
What is my role in this community we call humanity which includes everyone on this planet?
0:33:41.680,0:33:47.470
So, that's because you asked me about my process ...
0:33:48.460,0:33:51.840
Would you say that is a problem of being complacent?
0:33:55.258,0:33:57.428
You took peace for granted.
0:33:58.080,0:34:06.980
Complacency, over-consumption; these are certainly manifestations or symptoms of the process
0:34:07.129,0:34:17.480
and, you know, human nature who tends to take the easier way, to become complacent and be in contradiction with ...
0:34:17.850,0:34:23.830
Very often, in teaching circles, we're very often preaching water and we're drinking wine.
0:34:23.830,0:34:30.580
We're in contradiction to our own teaching and that's precisely what I found myself in!
0:34:30.652,0:34:37.838
I didn't want to jump to a alibi-exercise where I’m doing something
0:34:37.840,0:34:46.378
like everybody I know must now be united to send Reiki out there to Ukraine ... yes, there's nothing wrong with that
0:34:46.550,0:34:49.653
and I support all these groups and all these endeavors.
0:34:50.000,0:34:59.110
But my process was ... where is complacency? How can we break through these circles?
0:34:59.686,0:35:08.445
What can I contribute to this insight that it affects each and every one of us?
0:35:09.360,0:35:13.120
And not the Ukrainian or the Russian people and their leaders.
0:35:13.775,0:35:15.612
Okay, so what was your result?
0:35:16.758,0:35:24.288
You've said you've got parts and they need reconciliation so that you can be René once again.
0:35:24.390,0:35:26.780
... This is the amazing thing!
0:35:27.280,0:35:32.290
You're still René, you're still talking to me and yet something has happened on the inside
0:35:32.290,0:35:34.290
because something happened on the outside.
0:35:34.643,0:35:37.563
And this shows how we're all interconnected.
0:35:37.974,0:35:43.838
This factor that you're saying I think this is a deep thing that many people are confronted with
0:35:43.840,0:35:46.380
that we think we're living in a crazy world.
0:35:46.803,0:35:49.553
But the question that you've just posed is,
0:35:50.463,0:35:58.663
how do we re-conciliate our values inside us? How do we live the love inside us towards these people?
0:35:58.876,0:36:03.075
What is your job now? How are you going to make the world a better place?
0:36:04.708,0:36:09.618
So, have you any new plans or are you going to do the same as you did yesterday?
0:36:10.615,0:36:15.105
Yeah. That's exactly the kind of question. To answer it directly.
0:36:15.680,0:36:20.030
One of the things: I wrote an article about that. So, that's the mean I can do.
0:36:20.570,0:36:30.150
I prepared this particular RTalk and you just gave a key word, again, "a better world" was the words you used.
0:36:30.830,0:36:34.700
And the next part and the video will touch on that.
0:36:35.520,0:36:41.278
And the other thing my wife and I decided to proactively
0:36:41.803,0:36:46.080
go and offer - because that's something we can actively do -
0:36:47.020,0:36:56.530
our flat for refugees from the Ukraine which need to run away.
0:36:56.528,0:37:04.468
That just is the immediate things in the outer world I can do as a result - and you correctly put it -
0:37:04.745,0:37:12.205
from an inner process, from an inner ... To put that turmoil at ease there are many different ways to do that
0:37:12.503,0:37:17.298
but you summarized with a healing or reconciliation process and that's perfect.
0:37:17.663,0:37:22.248
Well, I just wrote my blog about Leonard Cohen.
0:37:23.170,0:37:28.230
He had this wonderful sentence or wrote a wonderful poem saying:
0:37:28.958,0:37:33.000
"There's a crack in everything. That's where the light comes through."
0:37:33.738,0:37:37.898
So, I think this is reflecting the situation that we're in.
0:37:38.153,0:37:43.405
This is reflecting that you're finding, oh, the complacency is something that's breaking open now.
0:37:43.898,0:37:46.460
There's something new coming. You have to look at it.
0:37:46.463,0:37:50.800
I’m very happy that you're offering a flat to refugees. I think that's very kind of you.
0:37:51.323,0:37:56.213
And I think, you know, we all are challenged to find what we can offer.
0:37:56.733,0:38:04.273
But I don't think ... It's really a challenge to reframe everything that is happening.
0:38:04.528,0:38:08.440
I think, you know, you have to be clear. It's ...
0:38:08.935,0:38:16.143
One of the things I really believe in is - and I think you do too - is liberation through reframing.
0:38:17.200,0:38:23.940
If we just say, oh, this is terrible and this is sad and (wailing) ... you know ... woe to me and all.
0:38:24.153,0:38:29.810
You're not helping anybody! You have to say, okay, certain values have come to an end certain
0:38:29.811,0:38:34.213
things are finished, we know we need to approach things in a different way, it's time to wake up.
0:38:34.640,0:38:39.448
There are many things that weren't there in the past but now they're here let's do something new.
0:38:39.713,0:38:43.293
I think that's really good but we have to reframe it.
0:38:43.548,0:38:48.555
We don't have to just look at the catastrophe. We have to say, this is unjust!
0:38:48.853,0:38:52.150
This is something we have to stop. Now there are problems.
0:38:52.145,0:38:56.567
There's a refugee coming to Switzerland and he can approach René. This is wonderful.
0:38:57.745,0:39:06.180
Yeah and that's dealing on the symptom level and what you're referring, reframing,
0:39:06.673,0:39:14.163
is a much deeper rooted, causal level to prevent that this is going to happen again,
0:39:14.461,0:39:19.774
because I profoundly believe that humanity is capable of reinventing itself,
0:39:19.858,0:39:24.320
of evolution continuing a process of unfolding of consciousness.
0:39:25.300,0:39:30.000
These are good keywords to look at the future and that would be the second part.
0:39:30.470,0:39:32.560
Should I show you what I prepared?
0:39:33.085,0:39:34.185
Please do.
0:39:35.935,0:39:38.315
Let's see now ....
0:39:41.353,0:39:44.873
Well, let's see the first part and then I’ll stop.
0:39:56.190,0:40:08.060
Indeed, I am very, very happy and it is a great honor to talk one of my old friends
0:40:09.050,0:40:10.530
and a spiritual friend.
0:40:11.038,0:40:18.168
So, I am really happy having this opportunity although physically there's a distance
0:40:19.060,0:40:23.300
but mentally we are always together.
0:40:23.330,0:40:29.500
I always consider you as a elder spiritual brother.
0:40:33.098,0:40:34.078
So ...
0:40:37.335,0:40:42.231
Gerald, of course, this is a teacher of yours, the Dalai Lama,
0:40:42.365,0:40:48.930
in conversation with Bishop Tutu who to me was highly inspirational
0:40:49.240,0:40:53.440
because of the Peace and Reconciliation work he did in South Africa.
0:40:53.490,0:40:56.058
I lived there, I lived for three years in South Africa.
0:40:56.938,0:41:02.668
And in fact, the two of them have appeared in a number of my video works so far.
0:41:03.110,0:41:10.100
And of course Bishop Tutu passed away last December and I thought I bring the two of them in here.
0:41:12.320,0:41:20.158
This is a recent, maybe the last filming between the two of them last year in July
0:41:20.585,0:41:30.585
and a little bit further on in the dialogue, and I’m going to show that, they continue talking
0:41:34.194,0:41:35.174
here we go
0:41:38.420,0:41:43.210
they're talking about the making of a film which I believe you saw yesterday.
0:41:47.040,0:41:47.817
Here we go.
0:41:49.860,0:41:54.780
At our meeting in Dharamsala, you mentioned
0:41:54.960,0:42:05.060
as a believer of god, you - after death - are ready to go to heaven.
0:42:08.700,0:42:18.270
According Christianity, I’m not a believer. So the Dalai Lama goes to a something different place.
0:42:18.600,0:42:21.580
(Both men are laughing)
0:42:27.498,0:42:34.640
This is, and I will show the last clip then in a moment, but this to me is so inspirational.
0:42:34.638,0:42:36.470
Two such different cultures ...
0:42:36.990,0:42:44.893
it's highly inspirational, you know, they're not coming from the usual quarters of occidental backgrounds.
0:42:45.580,0:42:48.558
So wise, such beacons for humanity
0:42:48.910,0:42:55.203
talking to each other, laughing with each other like ... almost like children.
0:42:55.695,0:43:00.790
So, of course, you've met the Dalai Lama on more than one occasion, I don't know.
0:43:00.785,0:43:02.590
Have you met Bishop Tutu also?
0:43:03.145,0:43:12.235
No. I didn't meet him but I can say both these men have had extremely difficult pasts.
0:43:12.578,0:43:18.451
The Dalai Lama is a refugee or was a refugee and Tutu had many illnesses
0:43:18.675,0:43:22.385
and if you look at the suffering that they went through in their life
0:43:23.008,0:43:26.508
then you will see they're inspirational because
0:43:26.646,0:43:32.928
despite the suffering they used it to reframe their view of the world and to open their hearts into love.
0:43:33.638,0:43:38.798
I think the word they use is 'joy' and not just compassion.
0:43:39.463,0:43:46.291
And if you take Buddha’s Ānāpānasati Sutra for instance, where you have the basis of mindfulness
0:43:46.504,0:43:53.651
you will find, I feel happiness, I feel joy and this joy is something you have to keep going
0:43:53.864,0:43:58.720
and you have to work on it. And if you want to help people you have to have the joy
0:43:58.719,0:44:04.292
and encourage the other people to enjoy their being as well.
0:44:06.735,0:44:13.760
Yeah and in fact, of course Mikao Usui Sensei pretty much in his own words
0:44:13.755,0:44:20.283
said the very same thing, that he has developed a methods or he rediscovered a method
0:44:21.040,0:44:24.380
in order for people to lead a happy life.
0:44:24.590,0:44:25.491
Yeah.
0:44:26.242,0:44:31.460
But the happiness is inside and the problem of our western society is we think it's outside.
0:44:31.794,0:44:35.758
I think that is the basic reorientation that we need to do
0:44:35.760,0:44:40.718
and that's why I was very happy with what you said before when you said you think about the Ukraine
0:44:41.060,0:44:44.820
but you're not thinking about the outside at the moment but you're thinking about
0:44:44.818,0:44:50.238
what is happening on the inside. What cracks are appearing there? Where have you been complacent?
0:44:50.725,0:44:58.355
I think that shows that you're a real human being, René and I’m pleased to talk to you.
0:44:59.100,0:45:04.330
Same thing is true. I was just thinking, this is not about me this is about you, Gerald.
0:45:04.933,0:45:08.303
People know me to a great extent, they don't know you.
0:45:09.545,0:45:13.070
Tell me about your cracks, about your dark moments,
0:45:13.140,0:45:19.566
your inner turmoil if you still have any or are you entirely enlightened?
0:45:19.753,0:45:28.580
Well, I think there's no such thing as totally enlightened.
0:45:28.920,0:45:34.490
Everybody works continually and enlightenment is a process that happens and happens and happens.
0:45:35.338,0:45:40.000
I don't know where it goes to because I haven't experienced it.
0:45:40.298,0:45:44.470
But what I have experienced is the love of my life dying.
0:45:45.123,0:45:50.175
And when she died I went to India and Nepal for eight years.
0:45:50.778,0:45:58.422
And I went into all sorts of situations that forced me to let go of my old thinking.
0:45:58.538,0:46:03.070
My old thinking was, I knew how Berlin worked. I knew what was right.
0:46:04.053,0:46:10.090
Going into these countries where everything works totally different, where the people are totally different,
0:46:10.230,0:46:15.780
the values seem maybe superficially similar but everything is different.
0:46:15.780,0:46:18.600
That is when I went through a huge process
0:46:18.720,0:46:27.718
of letting go of good ideas, letting go of conceptual ... well, world views if you like
0:46:28.183,0:46:32.513
and of finding out what is there in the minute, and what can I do here and now?
0:46:33.880,0:46:40.080
Coming back was very interesting because I thought, oh yeah, I’ve traveled now for eight years,
0:46:40.080,0:46:43.467
so when I get back I can go back to normal but there is no normal!
0:46:43.865,0:46:46.520
The society had changed. Everything had changed.
0:46:46.804,0:46:48.960
And so I had to reinvent myself.
0:46:49.555,0:46:57.415
And what I did was I went to America. I went to a big event called wisdom 2.0 in San Francisco
0:46:57.748,0:47:00.650
and they were talking about the future of mindfulness.
0:47:00.863,0:47:03.412
And the future of mindfulness was quite amazing
0:47:03.738,0:47:07.708
because they say, you cannot practice mindfulness without compassion.
0:47:08.460,0:47:15.900
This was the basis of Google, of LinkedIn, of Starbucks and ... Everybody was saying this in the conference,
0:47:15.900,0:47:20.078
and said, we cannot just teach mindfulness. It'd be very nice,
0:47:20.280,0:47:26.318
the sharp shooters in the army will be able to hit their people more precisely
0:47:26.653,0:47:31.847
but that's not the way to love. That's not the way to a better world.
0:47:32.187,0:47:34.843
We have to practice compassion.
0:47:35.455,0:47:40.775
And I think that's good because this is something that I can teach now and I say, well, you know,
0:47:41.025,0:47:45.083
we have so many wonderful teachers who are saying exactly the same thing;
0:47:45.296,0:47:48.574
whether it's Jack Kornfield or whoever.
0:47:48.866,0:47:57.040
They're all pointing out, this is the way to go, open your heart, open your heart, open your heart,
0:47:57.090,0:47:59.770
let the light shine in through the cracks that appear.
0:48:00.420,0:48:06.800
And trust! Only if you have trust can you stand up to all sorts of really difficult situations.
0:48:11.700,0:48:13.230
Thank you very much.
0:48:14.570,0:48:21.480
I’m glad Leonard Cohen has appeared also - the same thing the crack and the light - in a previous RTalk.
0:48:22.700,0:48:27.585
I’m glad he reappeared so if I may just go back to ...
0:48:27.840,0:48:31.605
Let me see that I do it technically correct this time.
0:48:33.535,0:48:41.850
I’d like to go a little bit further and just show another snippet here ...
0:48:48.040,0:48:49.730
(Laughter)
0:48:50.610,0:48:54.600
I consider that person also, you see, a mischievous person.
0:48:54.770,0:48:57.630
Unfortunately that person is Christian.
0:48:58.380,0:49:00.020
(Laughter)
0:49:00.960,0:49:03.480
Unfortunately he's a Buddhist.
0:49:04.380,0:49:06.030
(Laughter)
0:49:06.980,0:49:10.630
There's a question of how you think about your own death.
0:49:11.160,0:49:13.788
(Laughter) That's a possibility.
0:49:14.620,0:49:16.100
Quite polite.
0:49:16.860,0:49:18.270
(Laughter)
0:49:19.530,0:49:24.110
Well, he doesn't mind too much because there's a reincarnation.
0:49:25.210,0:49:29.840
(Music: Heal the world)
0:49:50.703,0:49:58.970
Wonderful scenes. Actually, the translator, Dalai Lama's translator commented and said,
0:49:59.525,0:50:06.052
there's a problem being a Buddhist monk and being asked to dance because Buddhists are not allowed to dance.
0:50:07.010,0:50:12.158
This is part of one of their vows and so this is a dilemma that the Dalai Lama was in
0:50:12.453,0:50:21.480
but he used it very quickly by just tickling Desmond Tutu's chin and this is so nice because the mutual part.
0:50:21.778,0:50:28.328
I think the word 'mischievous' is wonderful. It's a BBC film and I was really happy to see it.
0:50:28.590,0:50:33.340
I felt it's somehow lighthearted. You know it takes ...
0:50:34.240,0:50:41.410
Buddhism is very serious and Christianity is very serious and here you have these two guys playing around.
0:50:41.623,0:50:44.500
That's fun and I think this has something to do with life.
0:50:44.833,0:50:51.840
And love has something to do with the joy. I think the film is called 'Mission Joy' or something like that. Wonderful.
0:50:53.098,0:50:59.418
I will find it and put it in the description underneath when we release this.
0:51:01.000,0:51:09.810
I agree with you so much and there's so many direct messages in those snippets and obviously in the film.
0:51:10.430,0:51:17.670
But so much subtlety and so many messages to humanity, be it the dance,
0:51:17.670,0:51:28.275
be it how the Dalai Lama, his holiness is coping with his promise not to dance as part of being a monk
0:51:29.330,0:51:36.820
and how he coped with that, that he is not dogmatic, that he is surrendering to the situation in mutual trust,
0:51:37.235,0:51:39.255
a very important word you brought up.
0:51:39.990,0:51:43.850
Gerald, I’m extremely happy we took a little longer than usual.
0:51:45.383,0:51:53.273
Maybe for the end, what's today when we have finished and the rest of the day, what's your intention,
0:51:53.700,0:51:59.221
How are you going to answer the call of compassion?
0:51:59.434,0:52:02.723
What are you going to do this afternoon to express it?
0:52:03.955,0:52:06.065
Work on my taxes.
0:52:08.655,0:52:13.950
They have to be done and this is the part that I think is so important that we cannot,
0:52:14.030,0:52:19.100
we cannot, just look at a spiritual life without doing the practical things.
0:52:21.000,0:52:27.998
I don't think anybody really enjoys working on their taxes but it has to be done and I will do that this afternoon
0:52:28.425,0:52:36.236
and I will do it with a certain amount of joy because it shows you that my life has a foundation as well.
0:52:36.800,0:52:43.160
I live in a really practical society that demands from me that my feet stand on the ground
0:52:43.610,0:52:48.707
and at the same time I feel I can open my heart and I can go into different realms.
0:52:48.885,0:52:50.440
So, it's wonderful.
0:52:51.003,0:52:54.938
Thank you for the question. May I return it, what are you going to do this afternoon?
0:52:55.650,0:53:00.480
I’m going to speak to a Buddhist monk a little bit later on.
0:53:01.700,0:53:02.540
That's good.
0:53:02.690,0:53:09.540
I have promised my wife to go for a walk because the sun is beautifully shining out there.
0:53:10.000,0:53:11.870
Oh beautiful.
0:53:12.880,0:53:20.718
Talking of taxes, I really don't like doing the accounting but it gives me great joy to do it
0:53:20.720,0:53:28.265
because I know my wife dislikes it even more and unfortunately I haven't been
0:53:30.000,0:53:36.100
necessitated to pay taxes the last few years because of a small income
0:53:37.240,0:53:45.438
but I can say that I find that very unfortunate because the one thing in the tax field which I really do enjoy
0:53:45.440,0:53:47.500
is actually paying them.
0:53:48.535,0:53:52.675
Wonderful, wonderful. Our society wouldn't work if nobody paid.
0:53:55.780,0:54:03.073
Thank you so much for this conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it and I wish you and the RTalks
0:54:03.298,0:54:08.357
all the very best in the world and may you reach many people and may you have many insights.
0:54:09.293,0:54:14.443
Thank you very much indeed. It was a pleasure having you. I’m saying goodbye to you.
0:54:15.123,0:54:16.653
Thank you, Gerald.
0:54:17.160,0:54:21.464
I'm saying goodbye to you, dear viewers.
0:54:21.804,0:54:27.020
I hope you subscribe and see you soon in three weeks time.
0:54:28.150,0:54:30.540
English subtitles: René Vögtli
