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Welcome back to RTalk, the place where we agree to disagree,
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if we have reason to disagree.
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My guest today joins me from New York: Pamela Miles.
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Hello, Pamela.
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So glad to have you on my talk show.
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Hello, René, and I am thrilled to be here.
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Thank you so much for the invitation.
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You're welcome.
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It has been a while.
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We tried to meet each other in New York
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some five, seven years ago.
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Then you were in Europe.
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Milano was an option to meet you, but it never worked out.
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So I'm very happy to have you here meeting you this way again.
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Yes.
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Agreed.
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I'd like to say a few things about you to my viewers.
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Dear viewers, you probably know Pamela Miles.
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She is a very famous Reiki teacher, known internationally for many years now.
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She is an author and medical Reiki pioneer.
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She has brought the practice of Reiki to conventional medicine
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and started doing this already back in the 1990s.
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Over the course of 40 years of experience with spiritual practice,
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she's collaborated on various projects with academic medical centers, including Yale,
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Harvard and the National Institutes of Health.
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Pamela has been published in peer reviewed medical journals, including the Journal of
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the American College of Cardiology.
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She's also brought her insights to corporate outlets such as Unilever and Google.
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And she has been featured in mainstream media
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from television's NBC and CBS to the print media:
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The Atlantic, Forbes magazine - just to mention a few.
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So we have a very famous person here to listen to and to talk with.
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Pamela has always struck me as a woman who has her feet firmly on the ground.
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She, to me, always was somewhat of the impersonation of a tough New York woman.
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Maybe my preconceived opinions aren't all that correct.
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We will find out.
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And I also found her always very courageous.
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And I'm saying that, Pamela, because,
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I seem to recall - and I wonder whether you can help me with this -
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I seem to recall that quite a while ago there was a picture published of either
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you yourself, and I think that's true or one of your students in a operation theater.
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And this is a way back! 15, probably years.
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And it was not just a small operation, but a neurological or cardiological intervention.
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Do you know, the photo I'm referring to?
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I don't know the photo, because when I started practicing in the O.R. (Operating Room),
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it was before we had everybody walk around with a camera on their phone.
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And so.
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That was in the 1990s.
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And so I haven't seen the ...
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the photograph that you're referring to.
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I definitely was there.
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This is ... every one, all the doctors in full gear with masks and headlights and stuff.
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There's obviously an operation going on.
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And I just finished a small Reiki seminar here in in Greece, on the island.
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They always happen impromptu.
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And I had a charming young lady who wanted to do Reiki.
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And I told her that I tried to get into the operation theatre when my wife had a
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ski accident with multiple fractures of her skull and brain hemorrhage.
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And, of course, the doctors said to me: "No, you're not!"
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when I said I wanted to go into the operation theatre to treat her with Reiki.
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So that picture is very vivid in my mind.
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And of course, you were truly one of the very early pioneers of bringing Reiki to
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the medical field.
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In summary, how skeptical - before we get into our topic - how skeptical,
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I'm curious, did you find the medical profession? Were they so averse to new ideas as
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many of us Reiki practitioners often think of the doctors?
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Actually, I found them to be more open minded than I anticipated.
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Because when I first started in hospital, I was quite sure that I would meet a lot of
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resistance even though I was invited in.
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I didn't make this happen myself.
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I was asked to help.
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What I discovered was that the doctors were actually quite interested in what I was doing.
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This was ...
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just as the pharmaceuticals that are now available to treat AIDS were starting to be available.
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So the doctors were still very aware that there were serious limitations in how
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much they could help their patients and how much their patients were suffering.
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And they recognized that what I was doing was helping their patients in a way that they couldn't.
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So I think that often when we think of doctors as being skeptical,
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we're right.
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They are skeptical.
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They're critical thinkers.
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This is important, but often it's not Reiki practice that they're skeptical of.
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It's the way it's being presented.
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And so this is why, since the nineties, I have spent so much time trying to help
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Reiki professionals speak about their practice in a way that is meaningful to
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doctors and nurses and other licensed health care professionals.
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This is part of what I do in my Reiki and Medicine intensive.
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I understand and I agree with you.
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It was actually only last week when a French magazine asked me to write a short article
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because my wife and I have a case study archive.
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And in that article, I wrote about the value of case studies to illustrate one case.
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But we cannot extrapolate that and make a real deduction.
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And that's why a proper scientific databank with proper studies and ....
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The kind of work you've been doing is so important.
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Well, actually, René, if I could just interject.
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Please!
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Yes, I have been involved in ... research.
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And of course, we would always like to have more research.
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And most of the research that's been published on Reiki practice is not very good.
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The Reiki community gets very excited about it, but it's nothing that is
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impressive to people who understand research.
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So most of my work has been ...
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making Reiki practice relevant to the medical community without having the support
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of the kind of research that usually would be behind any new practice being brought into conventional medicine.
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Yeah.
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... a similar experience I made in the course of my exposure to the medical profession.
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There has been a databank which was established by the European Reiki Group,
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but it's relatively new and it's really a collection of all of the work,
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which I agree,
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not all of that deserves the title of being empiric or empirically sound kind of studies.
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But in the last five years, you know, there is a long term study, for example,
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in Germany they did on ovary cancer and breast cancer in women in three different hospitals
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and the peer reviewed articles by the doctorands (PhD students) are being released now.
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So, yes, I agree that is a new development.
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But let's talk about inclusiveness, although,
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I think we are on the subject already because I presented you as a pioneer of
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inclusion of the Reiki practice in the medical field at large.
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So we are on the topic anyhow.
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The word inclusiveness has become somewhat fashionable almost in the last few years,
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and I myself, I like it very much and I'm very committed to inclusive spirits in organizations.
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But ...
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I think there is ... something we need to shed some light on because it can easily
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be also somewhat of an illusion, this inclusiveness,
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because if you have an organization and you want to be inclusive, it generally means
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that you want to incorporate representatives of different trades or different styles or
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of different origins and backgrounds under one umbrella, or bringing them around the
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same table or whatever metaphor one wants to use.
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But the moment we talk about an organization, by definition it also
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becomes somewhat exclusive.
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I mean, inclusiveness doesn't mean it's an 'anything goes’ philosophy.
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Do you agree or how do you feel about this?
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I don't think we can have inclusive organizations until we have inclusive individuals
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who really hold the value of inclusiveness, of inclusion.
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People who have trained their minds to look to see what do we have in common here?
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What's the common ground?
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How can we start to create relationship?
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Because the mind doesn't look for common ground.
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It looks for differences.
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That's what its job is.
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And we have to expect it to do what it's made to do.
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If we want to be inclusive, we need to open that possibility within us.
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And to me, that means developing some spiritual maturity.
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And ...
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the only way I know to do that is to have a daily spiritual practice, like,
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for example, daily self Reiki.
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I mean, every day, not most days, not I try to, but more like: I'd go without sleep
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before I would go without my self-Reiki practice.
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Because that kind of rigour and that discipline is what is needed to train our minds.
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Our minds are relentless (laughs).
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They always look for what's wrong and how to blame somebody, you know?
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And so,
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you know, it takes a lot of spiritual growth, which takes commitment and ...
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intense ...
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emotional self honesty.
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I'm with you.
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I hear you.
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I looked up a little bit the definition of inclusiveness, and I found an interesting
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little video, which maybe we get around a little later.
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But for now, one definition I put it up on the screen:
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"Inclusiveness is an aura or an environment of letting people in and making them feel welcome."
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So here in this sentence, I hear something resonate, which I just heard
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from you, and that is inclusiveness is not the question of
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law, by-laws and regulations and agreements, but it's more a question of
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an attitude, of a basic inner ...
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- not even a mindset, that's too little, too limiting - attitude is the best kind of ...
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or consciousness is the best word I can find.
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Please help me out a little bit if you want to comment this sentence here.
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Yeah, I would say not only make them feel welcome because a good hostess makes people feel welcome.
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Right?
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But we want to communicate that they are valued.
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And the way that we do that is by offering them a seat at the table and listening.
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You know? Listening more than talking.
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And listening from that inner stillness and silence that we ...
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develop a relationship with through daily self-practice.
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I'm going to keep coming back (chuckles)
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to daily self practice, because for me, it's all hypothetical without daily self-practice.
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We can talk a good game, but we cannot live it if we don't have that commitment.
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I applaud you for that and I'm very happy the clarity with which you're saying that.
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And dear viewers, my guests and I, we don't pre discuss the contents.
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We agree on a topic and then we explore the topic as I'm doing now with Pamela
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- the topic is inclusiveness - as we go along.
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And here are the notes I made in my conversation with Pamela at the last time.
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We very quickly agreed that spirituality would be a title
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Pamela would like to speak about or discuss with me,
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and then we explored a little bit further and immediately under the title
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'spirituality', there's a number of arrows going to practice, practice, practice.
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So you're actually just repeating what you announced is so important to you.
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In that conversation you brought up a number of very interesting other catch phrases for me.
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Some of them, quite frankly, I didn't know where to put them.
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One was the word 'alignment'.
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And you said alignment is very important to you.
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And it was potentially a title for our conversation, but we chose 'inclusiveness'.
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Can you build a bridge between alignment and inclusiveness?
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Is there a parallel?
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Are they saying synonymous somehow?
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I think there are a lot of words that support one another: alignment,
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inclusiveness, harmony, integration, wholeness, wellness, and so alignment to
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focus in on that since you brought it up, you know,
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when we feel aligned with ourselves, then we're able to experience diversity in a positive way.
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When we're not aligned with ourselves, when we're in a defensive mode,
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because we're not coming from being rooted in our own timelessness, that's that
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spiritual core that we all have, then everything is a threat.
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You know, ... if you don't live with some experience of oneness,
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then you're stuck in competitiveness.
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So oneness and alignment are just two different ways of looking at that.
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And if you're in a two dimensional kind of perspective, then alignment is linear.
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And that leads to combat.
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Right?
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Push it out of your way.
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But if you're coming from a place of oneness, you can enjoy diversity and value it,
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because you see that alignment isn't one dimensional or two dimensional.
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You know, that there are many, many ways to express these timeless values and endless
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ways to manifest them in our lives.
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Our lives are all so different.
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We all have different details.
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I'm not sure I'm happy I asked the question about the alignment because what you just said is partly over my head.
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So intellectually, I'm not sure I grasp everything.
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But let me see whether my heart maybe comprehend a little bit of what you said,
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because as you spoke, it reminded me of a dilemma I often see ...
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in Reiki Masters when they're talking about their own personal and spiritual growth.
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To me, it is something which ...
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It's a very lonely path.
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I have to go that path completely on my own.
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Yes, it's wonderful to know that parallel to me there are other people walking
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in a similar direction or have the same goal.
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...
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But the path I'm walking on, my spiritual growth is a very lonely one or a very ... 'one' - there it is in 'oneness'.
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It doesn't mean lonely in the negative, oh, I'm so poor, I'm left alone.
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And the dilemma I often observe
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- and I don't want to say in others, although I do see it there too,
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But I also sense it in myself because there is this human wanting to be a part of a
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group, wanting to be belonging.
0:20:47.079,0:20:48.970
I'm having these RTalks.
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It's such a fantastic media to get to know people like you and talk with them about interesting things.
0:20:56.710,0:21:09.400
So obviously this satisfies a desire in me to be an exchange with others so that
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that I can go my path on my own.
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But I know I need to go it on my own.
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That sometimes feels like a dilemma.
0:21:16.636,0:21:22.720
That's a little bit what I heard in your answer when you spoke about alignment and oneness.
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Do I make somewhat sense or ...?
0:21:28.380,0:21:31.100
You know, we don't have to make sense, right?
0:21:31.330,0:21:32.730
(laughter)
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We're expressing ourselves in a supportive way.
0:21:36.936,0:21:43.240
And what you said reminded me of the great Sufi poet-saint, Hafiz
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who said:
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"Don't surrender your loneliness so quickly. Let it cut more deep."
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Oh, beautiful!
0:21:53.192,0:21:54.864
And he goes on from there.
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But the idea of perhaps we have to be alone ...
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in that our practice is singular.
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And as we become, we live in awareness of oneness, then our
0:22:13.896,0:22:21.329
singular manifestation, your individuality, is informed by that oneness.
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So we make different choices and we see people differently.
0:22:26.166,0:22:31.440
For example, if you look at my hand, you know, there's five fingers here and
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they're all quite different and they have different purposes.
0:22:35.849,0:22:41.036
And so the mind that's looking for differences will say, Oh, well, which one is best?
0:22:41.819,0:22:45.690
This one, because it's the tallest! No, this one because it's off by itself! No ...
0:22:45.756,0:22:47.970
You know, and make up all these stories.
0:22:48.210,0:22:53.620
But when we are informed by oneness, we see one hand
0:22:53.890,0:23:02.310
with five fingers, each unique, that can work together to create amazing things.
0:23:02.530,0:23:06.390
They work together and that comes back to alignment.
0:23:06.456,0:23:14.000
So we can keep weaving these threads into a beautiful tapestry, you know, of ...
0:23:15.670,0:23:24.160
How can we be in this world and make a difference and not be critical?
0:23:24.369,0:23:33.330
You know, not be, as a friend of mine once said, "not always criticizing God's mistakes", but still engaged in service.
0:23:36.450,0:23:38.500
Very wise and very nice.
0:23:38.566,0:23:39.539
Thank you very much.
0:23:42.359,0:23:51.029
I have prepared, as I like to do, a small break in our conversation, a small video to look at.
0:23:52.500,0:23:54.599
Let me show you what I picked out.
0:23:55.529,0:23:56.279
I hope ...
0:23:58.680,0:24:01.799
And now I have to go and play it. Just the second.
0:24:05.579,0:24:07.559
Inclusiveness is not an idea.
0:24:07.950,0:24:09.960
Inclusiveness is not a philosophy.
0:24:10.140,0:24:12.450
Inclusiveness is not a campaign that you run.
0:24:12.720,0:24:15.480
It has to happen in individual experience.
0:24:15.690,0:24:22.288
We must understand the words like society, nation, tribe - this, that - these are just words.
0:24:22.290,0:24:27.378
There are only human beings. There are only individual human beings.
0:24:27.380,0:24:32.309
Unless it happens in our experience, it is not a reality.
0:24:32.640,0:24:36.550
To bring this dimension into education process,
0:24:36.860,0:24:40.900
to bring this sense of inclusiveness into the economic process,
0:24:41.400,0:24:46.850
to bring this dimension as a living process in our spiritual dimensions.
0:24:46.990,0:24:51.250
If this does not happen, we will go on dividing the world, because
0:24:51.440,0:24:56.590
right now we are using only one aspect of our intelligence, which is called the intellect.
0:24:56.650,0:25:00.329
Because the nature of the intellect is such, it is a knife.
0:25:01.380,0:25:04.010
You cannot use it to stitch things together.
0:25:04.190,0:25:07.400
If you stitch with a knife you would leave everything in tatters.
0:25:08.039,0:25:13.049
The more effort we make in this direction, the more the destructive we will become.
0:25:13.410,0:25:16.650
We need to touch deeper dimensions of our intelligence,
0:25:16.859,0:25:18.920
which is naturally unifying.
0:25:19.529,0:25:21.210
...
0:25:23.789,0:25:24.960
So ...
0:25:27.240,0:25:32.420
I heard some of what Sadhguru ... he's talking here ...
0:25:35.039,0:25:38.759
at the conference of Global Education and Skills Forum.
0:25:38.826,0:25:41.470
This was a few years ago where I picked this out.
0:25:42.690,0:25:43.650
...
0:25:44.580,0:25:50.190
A lot of what he said, I actually felt more than comprehended,
0:25:50.256,0:25:50.759
I felt
0:25:52.410,0:25:55.410
what you said, what he said, there is compatibility.
0:25:55.476,0:25:56.460
Let's put it this way.
0:25:57.180,0:26:02.860
Do you feel that way? What can you say about what Sadhguru just said here?
0:26:04.950,0:26:08.940
I agree with you and I agree with him.
0:26:09.006,0:26:12.869
And I love the image of the intellect as a knife.
0:26:13.319,0:26:16.589
I mean, that's basically what I was saying, too.
0:26:16.656,0:26:21.480
And, you know, there is a … there was a Hasidic rabbi,
0:26:22.450,0:26:23.259
I believe.
0:26:24.329,0:26:26.366
That's where this quote comes from, but ...
0:26:27.670,0:26:34.150
He said: "May I never use my intellect against the truth."
0:26:35.089,0:26:36.109
And so ...
0:26:37.700,0:26:41.180
if truth can be another term for oneness.
0:26:43.049,0:26:48.809
And when we talk about my truth and your truth and, you know, we're artificially
0:26:48.876,0:26:55.440
splitting truth into my perspective and my emotions and, you know,
0:26:55.980,0:26:57.569
these things are important,
0:26:58.890,0:27:05.160
but there is also a truth, the truth of oneness that is greater than all of that,
0:27:05.226,0:27:08.970
greater than anything that can be expressed.
0:27:10.880,0:27:15.920
Actually in this video a little bit further on, because it was in context with education,
0:27:15.986,0:27:23.599
he also said very well and very much to the point that in order to study things,
0:27:23.666,0:27:29.900
we often separate them and look at the individual components to learn about them.
0:27:30.740,0:27:36.589
But then we start believing that they themselves are an answer and are the truth.
0:27:36.950,0:27:43.849
Whereas of course, they are only a component of something bigger, of the oneness which you just described.
0:27:45.410,0:27:53.970
And that's what's happening, René, in conventional medicine with this hyper specialization
0:27:54.480,0:27:58.940
and losing touch with the whole.
0:27:59.460,0:28:03.319
You know, losing touch with the human being that we're serving.
0:28:03.386,0:28:05.950
We're not serving the liver or the kidney.
0:28:07.069,0:28:08.930
We're serving the human being.
0:28:09.470,0:28:17.660
And this is largely happened since we see this pressure to practice
0:28:17.690,0:28:25.220
'evidence based medicine', which is basically taking spirituality out of medical practice.
0:28:25.286,0:28:30.799
And this is the first time in recorded history that we've been in that situation.
0:28:30.866,0:28:35.000
And, you know, it's not going very well for anyone.
0:28:35.180,0:28:39.770
We have medical professionals with very high burnout rate,
0:28:40.140,0:28:47.359
doctors saying, they don't want their children to become doctors and patients who feel disempowered.
0:28:48.960,0:28:57.900
So spirituality, that experience of oneness, is critically important to health and well-being.
0:28:59.950,0:29:05.600
We're fortunate that Reiki practice, just to bring it back to this practice that we both know and love,
0:29:06.230,0:29:08.759
Reiki practice helps us to ...
0:29:09.940,0:29:16.970
have at least some sliver of an experience of that oneness pretty quickly.
0:29:18.790,0:29:26.170
That means we pretty quickly start feeling better and functioning better and making better choices.
0:29:26.236,0:29:32.799
So we get that snowball rolling down the health promotion side of the mountain
0:29:32.866,0:29:36.410
instead of the disease promotion side of the mountain.
0:29:38.660,0:29:39.829
I agree with you.
0:29:40.400,0:29:46.460
Although I would like to make a comment on the 'evidence based medicine'.
0:29:47.150,0:29:56.179
I agree with what you said, but this has become such a dynamics, powerful dynamics on its own,
0:29:57.033,0:30:03.740
mainly because it's the manifestation of the social interaction on all levels.
0:30:04.730,0:30:12.789
If people are not prepared to cover medical aid coverage, to spend money, if they if they want everything cheap,
0:30:13.319,0:30:22.569
if everything needs to be documented with a rational mind and society, people are asking for that.
0:30:22.680,0:30:28.640
It's not necessarily dictated by medical doctors.
0:30:28.706,0:30:32.420
And I'm glad you said how they suffer also.
0:30:33.170,0:30:37.910
And actually, there's a very high suicide rate amongst medical people also.
0:30:39.230,0:30:48.329
But that's a social, a politically social thing and not ... a medical issue per say.
0:30:50.150,0:30:53.869
I made an experience when we did ...
0:30:56.359,0:31:02.210
We wanted to make a study in Switzerland in combination - because there was a bilateral
0:31:02.276,0:31:09.319
agreement with Lithuania and there was a Reiki master, a doctor who invested in
0:31:09.386,0:31:16.664
doing research, breast cancer and parallel there was this study in Munich, in Germany.
0:31:17.248,0:31:20.998
So I was looking for hospitals in Switzerland to partake.
0:31:21.200,0:31:26.180
And I found the one hospital which would have been the one to do it.
0:31:27.529,0:31:33.950
But the head of ... the chief doctor, he declined simply because his doctorands
0:31:34.190,0:31:39.349
had so many projects already with complementary medicine, where they did research
0:31:39.416,0:31:44.630
and we would have had to be able to do it in five years down the road, which was too late
0:31:44.696,0:31:48.769
for the bilateral agreement between the two countries.
0:31:49.519,0:31:54.319
But the parting words of this doctor were very impressive, and I would like to share
0:31:54.386,0:31:56.329
them here because he said,
0:31:57.859,0:32:00.680
"You Reiki people really drive me up the wall.
0:32:01.400,0:32:07.819
Why is it that when you visit a patient, your mother, and you treat them in a hospital
0:32:08.210,0:32:14.623
and we, the doctors walk in, you pull away the hands and pretend that ... you're whistling to the ceiling.
0:32:14.960,0:32:18.019
Why aren't you standing up for what you are doing?
0:32:18.500,0:32:24.223
And when your patients come to the hospitals, why are you not asking for Reiki treatments?
0:32:24.890,0:32:28.849
Of course, the medical aid system is not ready yet to provide that.
0:32:29.000,0:32:31.670
But if you don't ask, if you're not transparent ...
0:32:34.400,0:32:37.190
nothing will ever change in society."
0:32:38.069,0:32:44.660
And he instructed his nurses and his medical staff who did have Reiki, that they would
0:32:44.726,0:32:50.599
write it in their daily reports, even if it was just a short and the brief while giving
0:32:50.666,0:32:53.599
medication kind of Reiki treatment.
0:32:53.990,0:33:00.403
And he said to them, "Please put it down, even though we full well know nobody is ever going to pay for that.
0:33:00.650,0:33:06.589
But if it's not recorded and accumulated with these recordings, it’s non-existent."
0:33:07.341,0:33:10.839
So that was very impressive for me. I learnt a lot from that Doctor.
0:33:11.569,0:33:13.633
Yes, and ...
0:33:15.769,0:33:17.769
I just want to go on record:
0:33:17.836,0:33:23.354
I never remove my hands when the doctors and nurses walk into the room.
0:33:23.539,0:33:29.420
I keep my hands on the person that I'm there to serve and I catch
0:33:30.710,0:33:38.859
the professional's eye to see and if I can even ask them, "Do you need me to step out of the room?"
0:33:39.849,0:33:44.436
Because sometimes they have something that they need to do right then,
0:33:44.438,0:33:46.363
sometimes they can do it with me in the room.
0:33:46.849,0:33:55.008
And almost always the doctor or nurse will say: "No, I can come back.
0:33:55.450,0:34:03.433
What you're doing is more important." Because they see the patient relaxed, serene,
0:34:03.600,0:34:08.880
composed, resting ... to a degree that they've never seen before.
0:34:08.946,0:34:13.480
They've only seen that patient in pain and anguish.
0:34:13.546,0:34:19.202
And they understand that the body and the mind need to rest if people are going to heal.
0:34:19.510,0:34:24.362
But conventional medicine isn't good at healing. It's good at fixing.
0:34:25.690,0:34:31.503
So I'm going to say something really radical, and I want everybody to listen up and look.
0:34:33.071,0:34:35.350
This is my primary health care.
0:34:37.199,0:34:43.591
I don't get my primary health care from a doctor or a nurse or any other professional.
0:34:43.800,0:34:46.530
Hands on my body every day.
0:34:48.491,0:34:50.411
Reiki self practice.
0:34:51.250,0:34:53.920
About half an hour, often longer.
0:34:54.550,0:34:56.469
That's my primary health care.
0:34:56.650,0:35:03.030
And that enables me to stay in alignment with myself, with the world around me.
0:35:03.369,0:35:11.469
And it also helps me be aware enough of myself to notice it if something seems
0:35:11.536,0:35:18.219
headed in a not so good direction, if I'm heading out of alignment and more practice
0:35:18.489,0:35:21.400
and investigate, you know, take a look.
0:35:21.466,0:35:24.400
Do I need something besides Reiki practice?
0:35:24.579,0:35:25.869
And many times I do.
0:35:27.989,0:35:38.820
So ... you know, as to my research that the person who started the first ever Reiki program in a hospital,
0:35:40.139,0:35:46.650
I have always been concerned about the medicalization of Reiki practice and I've
0:35:46.716,0:35:52.800
always represented it as a spiritual practice rather than as energy medicine.
0:35:53.159,0:35:57.510
And of course, that's something we could talk about for a very long time.
0:35:57.576,0:36:03.630
But I invite people to at least consider that because spiritual practice means it's
0:36:03.696,0:36:10.710
something we do to come back to alignment with ourselves, to come back to our hearts
0:36:10.776,0:36:15.678
so that we can experience inclusiveness.
0:36:16.600,0:36:19.702
We can use our minds. We want to use our intellect.
0:36:19.949,0:36:22.909
It's important to be able to make discernment.
0:36:22.976,0:36:26.409
So we don't want to be so open minded that our brains fall out. Right?
0:36:26.969,0:36:31.596
But using the mind in service of the heart,
0:36:31.767,0:36:37.482
we have to spend time in communion with our hearts to be able to do that.
0:36:38.130,0:36:43.500
So this is my primary health care. I practice every day.
0:36:43.566,0:36:49.230
And I have ever since I learned to practice Reiki in 1986, which was something I
0:36:49.296,0:36:56.423
understood because I already had a daily meditation practice and I was a yoga practitioner.
0:36:56.556,0:36:59.159
So I understood the idea of practice.
0:36:59.880,0:37:06.420
And practice is what supports inclusiveness.
0:37:10.594,0:37:11.674
Wow, wow ...
0:37:11.739,0:37:13.860
I can only subscribe to that.
0:37:13.926,0:37:16.300
There's nothing I could say I disagree with.
0:37:16.840,0:37:22.574
Oh, yes! The term spiritual practice. I ...
0:37:22.839,0:37:28.929
Particularly when I speak to medical people, I often call it a holistic practice.
0:37:29.373,0:37:31.894
But that's nitpicking on words.
0:37:31.896,0:37:35.159
The essence, I'm so happy about what you said.
0:37:35.226,0:37:37.752
Thank you very much for your kindness.
0:37:38.600,0:37:41.266
But holistic is spiritual!
0:37:41.569,0:37:45.426
The spiritual perspective is the perspective of wholeness.
0:37:45.489,0:37:46.809
So we're saying the same thing.
0:37:46.876,0:37:52.775
And always when in conversation with someone you want to speak to the person in front of you
0:37:52.867,0:38:01.719
and use words that are meaningful to them and yet convey your meaning, know your perspective.
0:38:01.786,0:38:08.619
And if you have to explain a little bit, you might say Reiki is a subtle practice.
0:38:09.389,0:38:11.710
You know, you don't always have to use the word spiritual.
0:38:11.776,0:38:13.059
I'm just using it here.
0:38:14.550,0:38:20.760
And I just try to be in disagreement and find something to disagree with.
0:38:20.800,0:38:23.196
So I was nitpicking on something.
0:38:23.367,0:38:25.617
(laughter)
0:38:26.109,0:38:27.609
Thank you very much, Pamela.
0:38:29.369,0:38:34.590
There's one or two more things, maybe just very briefly, when we spoke in
0:38:34.656,0:38:40.900
our conversation a week ago and we agreed on 'inclusiveness',
0:38:40.966,0:38:43.949
you said an interesting sentence and maybe you can elaborate:
0:38:44.550,0:38:50.250
"I am so inclusive. I'm very inclusive. Sometimes to my detriment."
0:38:50.610,0:38:52.139
What did you mean by that?
0:38:56.260,0:38:57.550
I would rather ...
0:38:59.260,0:39:00.820
let someone in ...
0:39:02.389,0:39:07.099
and let them misbehave up to a point ...
0:39:09.019,0:39:10.849
than decide ...
0:39:12.099,0:39:15.010
Oh, that person's going to misbehave.
0:39:15.340,0:39:22.113
That person's not doesn't really understand what we're doing here, is not going to be able to honor the values.
0:39:22.246,0:39:25.539
I'd rather give people a little more space than that.
0:39:26.239,0:39:26.928
And ...
0:39:28.929,0:39:38.563
You know, I feel like I have the space within me to make allowances.
0:39:40.433,0:39:41.757
That's what I was talking about.
0:39:42.070,0:39:46.780
So I hear you rather giving the person the benefit of the doubt.
0:39:47.199,0:39:47.699
Yes.
0:39:47.969,0:39:55.239
And find out maybe something which where the writing was on the wall to some extent.
0:39:56.889,0:40:01.900
But create an atmosphere and environment where this is
0:40:01.966,0:40:07.780
happening in the here and now, rather than via preconceived opinions and via prejudgments
0:40:07.846,0:40:11.650
and things like that, that's, what I just deduced from what you said.
0:40:12.159,0:40:19.773
Yeah. And give the person a chance to feel included and valued and that this is a place
0:40:20.170,0:40:22.570
where he or she belongs.
0:40:22.840,0:40:30.639
And see, because, you know, maybe the anger that is infecting them
0:40:31.760,0:40:35.480
is on its way out and this experience will help it.
0:40:37.039,0:40:42.000
So I would rather ... I like that phrase that you used: 'benefit of the doubt'.
0:40:42.066,0:40:47.510
I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt because otherwise it's just,
0:40:48.469,0:40:52.931
you know, like Martin Luther King Junior said,:
0:40:53.234,0:40:57.949
"Hate is too heavy of a burden to carry."
0:40:58.429,0:40:58.929
Yes.
0:41:00.460,0:41:04.710
Yeah. And the amazing thing is you give them the benefit of the doubt
0:41:04.876,0:41:12.159
and most of the time the result is actually very different to what you thought the writing on the wall was.
0:41:13.099,0:41:23.727
At least that's my experience that ... Of course they are misbehaving situations but not equally as often.
0:41:23.926,0:41:30.856
More often than that, the exact opposite is the result when you come and meet people with the kind of
0:41:30.916,0:41:33.240
attitude you just described.
0:41:34.109,0:41:39.109
I'm coming to an end. I've been driving to an end, as
0:41:40.480,0:41:42.070
you probably sensed, Pamela.
0:41:42.136,0:41:47.199
But I want to give you the last words to whatever you want to say.
0:41:48.010,0:41:53.110
I have a personal question, though, and dear viewers, I have to let you in on
0:41:53.176,0:42:02.464
something very interesting, which happened, because I spoke to Pamela a week ago for two, three minutes
0:42:02.596,0:42:08.230
and somehow, like I just did a moment ago, I used the term 'preconceived opinions'.
0:42:08.710,0:42:10.929
She allowed me to finish my sentence.
0:42:10.996,0:42:16.820
And then she said: "I wonder, René, what your preconceived opinions are about me?"
0:42:16.822,0:42:20.902
So I'd like to return the favor to you, Pamela:
0:42:20.904,0:42:27.274
What were and are your preconceived opinions about me? Just as a personal favour to answer that question
0:42:27.406,0:42:29.650
and then you can have your final words, please.
0:42:31.530,0:42:38.639
I actually am not in the practice of holding opinions about people.
0:42:39.300,0:42:41.070
What I had seen of you,
0:42:42.989,0:42:51.119
the very idea of reconciliation is very valuable and that you would devote so much
0:42:51.186,0:43:01.190
time and energy to it and be willing to seek out people of divergent perspectives.
0:43:01.256,0:43:02.400
I mean, that is something ...
0:43:03.820,0:43:07.900
René, that I related to so deeply.
0:43:07.966,0:43:13.510
You know, I saw that common ground between us because I've always been more interested
0:43:13.576,0:43:19.000
in the person in the room who is the most different from me, because that's where I
0:43:19.066,0:43:21.800
have the most to learn, you know?
0:43:22.150,0:43:25.179
And learning has always been important to me.
0:43:26.739,0:43:27.239
Okay.
0:43:27.306,0:43:32.084
Of course, I was fishing a little bit for compliments, but never mind about that.
0:43:32.739,0:43:34.780
You said very wise and nice words.
0:43:34.846,0:43:36.219
And yes, I agree with you.
0:43:36.286,0:43:41.199
I think that's where there is a commonality between the two of us.
0:43:42.190,0:43:47.349
And I know in our conversations we've had many discussions where we were not on common
0:43:47.416,0:43:53.260
ground at all, but that was always in the spirit of agreeing to disagree on a subject.
0:43:53.679,0:43:57.849
So, Pamela, what's your final goodbye words for today?
0:44:03.039,0:44:07.510
We can be both mystical and reasonable.
0:44:09.280,0:44:19.181
Being mystical, experiencing oneness, living lives informed by oneness doesn't make us positional.
0:44:20.267,0:44:30.397
It helps us make the best possible choice out of the choices that are available to us.
0:44:31.009,0:44:31.549
So ...
0:44:32.909,0:44:37.590
Being a mystic, being a dedicated spiritual practitioner
0:44:39.449,0:44:43.739
doesn't mean having to be judgmental.
0:44:46.112,0:44:53.675
To be able to see differences and understand and appreciate that each of us is ...
0:44:54.896,0:44:58.057
doing the best we can in any given moment.
0:44:58.530,0:45:04.380
Compassion comes when we see ... (laughs) - I just speak for myself -
0:45:05.070,0:45:11.849
compassion started to arise when I saw how doing my very best
0:45:12.150,0:45:15.393
I fell so flat on my face.
0:45:18.556,0:45:26.400
And then something started opening up that, you know, I could be sensitive to the
0:45:26.466,0:45:32.699
vulnerability of being human and that we're all living on that
0:45:33.659,0:45:41.639
edge of vulnerability and uncertainty and to be poised in the midst of uncertainty.
0:45:42.300,0:45:47.969
That's why we need spiritual practice, and we need it in a consistent way,
0:45:48.179,0:45:52.449
not like, "Oh", you know, people say: "Oh, I practice Reiki when I need it."
0:45:52.516,0:46:00.223
I mean, we need it 24/7 it seems to me. Like, so why not just practice once a day?
0:46:00.553,0:46:09.562
Isn't that easier than practicing it every time we need it? And start to develop resilience ...
0:46:10.268,0:46:16.778
And to move out to med-speak a little bit, to move out of that sympathetic overdrive,
0:46:17.033,0:46:21.924
in which we're defensive and we're sure somebody is out to get us.
0:46:21.926,0:46:30.894
Well, somebody may be out to get us, but we're better positioned to address that reality if it is a reality
0:46:32.004,0:46:39.234
if we are in our parasympathetic state, if we are in our heart, if we're in this
0:46:39.630,0:46:45.113
nervous system state in which our bodies and our minds are able to heal.
0:46:45.594,0:46:48.750
So this is my primary health care.
0:46:49.110,0:46:56.219
This is my primary spiritual practice and thank you so much for this opportunity.
0:46:56.460,0:46:57.780
I so appreciate it.
0:46:57.846,0:47:06.300
I'm really honored and I am deeply respectful of the work that you're doing.
0:47:06.929,0:47:07.429
Oh,
0:47:08.940,0:47:10.469
that's very kind of you to say.
0:47:10.536,0:47:12.030
Thank you very much, Pamela.
0:47:13.110,0:47:14.760
Thank you for having joined me.
0:47:15.059,0:47:16.349
I'm looking forward.
0:47:16.800,0:47:22.132
Maybe your resilience is going to be the topic you and I will discuss in any year or so, or half an year.
0:47:22.980,0:47:23.960
Thank you very much.
0:47:24.026,0:47:25.619
I wish you a wonderful day.
0:47:26.219,0:47:27.300
Bye-bye, Pamela.
0:47:29.039,0:47:29.699
Bye-bye.
0:47:31.400,0:47:38.983
And bye-bye, dear viewers, that was a very
entertaining - I hope you found - issue of RTalk.
0:47:39.349,0:47:43.369
Please subscribe and watch in three weeks’ time.
0:47:43.436,0:47:43.936
Bye-bye.
