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Welcome to RTalk, the place where we agree to disagree. Maybe.
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Today my guest is Claire O'Shea.
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She is in Seattle and our topic is: 'Two practices'.
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Hello Claire, welcome to my little talk show.
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It's lunchtime where you are, you've had a busy morning already?
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Yes.
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Good for you.
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Claire, I want to introduce you in a moment.
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Just so you know, we are going to talk about 'two practices' today.
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Well, we've agreed on that obviously.
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But just so you know that I in my mind have prepared basically two directions of our conversation.
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One direction would be two practices; the agility, the flexibility that gives.
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The inclusiveness that entails.
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And the other avenue would be two practices;
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there can be a conflict of interest or divided loyalty even.
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So these are basically the two avenues and you will be able later to choose which one we start with.
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Is that okay with you?
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Okay.
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Good.
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I want to introduce you and before I do that, dear viewers,
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I'm very excited to have Claire here because I'm intrigued by this personality and by our topic we have,
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I think the topic potentially could be explosive.
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I'm confident that we are having a very nice conversation, but it should be quite exciting.
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A small public relation note:
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Please sign up for our YouTube channel. You see the button down there somewhere during the video.
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And of course if you want to subscribe to our newsletter, please feel free to do so. It's free of charge.
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So let me introduce Claire to you.
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Claire has been teaching and practicing Reiki as an Usui Shiki Ryoho Reiki Master since 1988.
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She is an elder in the Reiki community.
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I'm extremely happy to have a person with so much background here.
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And, as we will find out, there's more to Claire, which is exciting.
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She joined the Reiki Alliance in 1989,
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Claire has also trained in Jikiden Reiki, a Japanese form of Usui Reiki.
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And since 2010, she is a Jikiden Reiki Shihan, or teacher, associated with the Jikiden Reiki Institute in Kyoto, Japan.
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Claire runs the Emerald City Reiki Center.
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In the center, Reiki treatments are offered and regular classes in Jikiden Shoden, the first degree
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and Okuden, the second degree.
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The center also offers an apprenticeship of Usui Shiki Ryoho mastery level on a very individual basis.
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Now, Claire, welcome again.
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I hope I have covered approximately your biography very briefly.
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Please add, as you choose, please correct my pronunciation of your name.
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And also, please tell me why Emerald Center?
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Oh, Seattle is known as the Emerald City.
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And I also teach Usui Shiki Ryoho first degree and second degree.
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Not just Reiki Mastery apprenticeship.
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Ok.
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Alright.
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In the description of the video, there will be a link to your center.
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I was intrigued because when I made the transition from commodity trading business world to become
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a Reiki teacher - at that time I didn't know it yet -
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my wife and I had an art shop with visual art and with jewelry.
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And of course, Emeralds being one of the Big Four.
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So I was intrigued by your center being called the Emerald Center.
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Claire, should we first look a little bit at the word practices?
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Just so that you and I and also our viewers have approximately the same idea.
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And if I look up practices, well, let me ask you, what's your definition of the word practice?
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A practice is a particular method. In this case of teaching Reiki.
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Usui Shiki Ryoho and Jikiden Reiki involve the same Reiki, but they are totally different methods of teaching it.
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Ok.
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Very good.
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...
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In everyday's language, the word practice, of course has a number of different meanings.
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But one of them is referring to, for example, spiritual practices.
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To me Reiki isn't exclusively a spiritual practice, it's actually a holistic practice, body, mind and soul, so to speak.
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But it says in the definition, these are activities undertaken for the purpose of spiritual unfolding or development.
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A metaphor often used is that of walking a path - that's often used in terms of religion - towards a goal.
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And I think the goal in the practice we are talking about or the practices within Reiki,
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the goal I would define as holistic healing.
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How about you? What's the goal of our practices?
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Well, for me Reiki is a profound meditation.
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I didn't start out in Reiki with any goal.
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I simply experienced it in a meditation class.
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The person who taught the class brought in someone who demonstrated Reiki. And ...
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The theory that was put forward was that everyone has Reiki.
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It's just a matter of focus.
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It's a lot more than that.
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But as it happened, I was ... The person demonstrating had people break up into pairs.
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And I was the odd person out.
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And the person who was demonstrating, demonstrated on me.
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And I had received some spiritual guidance earlier saying I needed yoga and meditation.
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And I could never really get into meditation.
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And I had taken this meditation course to see if there was, you know,
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something besides staring at candles and chanting a particular mantra.
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And when this person put their hand just above my head, they didn't touch my head,
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I was ... blown away.
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I thought, OK, this is my meditation.
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And Reiki has been my meditation ever since.
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I've studied other meditation techniques.
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But for me, Reiki is it.
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I didn't set out to become a Reiki master. I didn't set out to become a Jikiden Reiki Shihan.
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But my experience is that Reiki takes you where you need to go.
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And so it happened very quickly for me.
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I took first degree Reiki in 1987 and I became a Reiki master in 1988.
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And there were always, you know, when I practiced it for 26 years before taking Jikiden Reiki.
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There were always questions that I had, for instance, the use of the mental emotional technique.
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What was that for?
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What did it do?
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My experience of it when people treated me was that it was calming.
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That was it.
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In Jikiden Reiki it's a particular method of the mental emotional treatment,
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which is focused on getting rid of a bad habit, anxiety, depression.
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And there are particular Japanese words, Kotodama, involved that were never involved in the Reiki I originally learned.
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I didn't and ... When I took Shoden and Okuden from Mr. Yamaguchi, he said, you know, don't change what you're doing.
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You know, just go with it.
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But don't mix them up.
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Don't create a hybrid of them.
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And so I don't.
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When I teach first degree and second degree or Shoden and Okuden, it is the student's choice, which they want to learn.
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I do a lot of distant treating using both Jikiden, Enkaku, which just means distant treatment, but it's a particular method.
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And what I learned in Usui Shiki Ryoho.
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And recently when I wasn't feeling well, we have this tradition in the Reiki Alliance version of Usui Shiki Ryoho,
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of having a support line and people can ask for treatment.
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And I put it out on the support line and was amazed because overnight what was wrong with me went away.
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Just disappeared. So it's not that one method is better than the other.
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It's just one method has a completely different focus.
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And ...
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They both work and the longer you practice Reiki, the more you know that.
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They work in a similar way.
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You know, when I do these talks and I speak to representatives from all sorts of styles
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and actually all the people who have ever been on my show, they were Reiki personalities, whether they're Reiki 1 or Reiki teacher, doesn't matter.
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But some of them were seasoned Reiki masters.
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I'm thinking of a Arjava Petter as an example, or a William Rand to use another example and many more.
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And also when I did the video a long time ago, outside the RTalks, the documentary of Phyllis Furumoto,
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when I did a lot of research and I spoke to 100, literally 100, it's actually a few more Reiki personalities all over the world.
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And the one thing, they were always in agreement with each other at the end of the day - that's my language now -
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at the end of the day, the bottom line, the Reiki itself is always the same.
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So that was very interesting to hear and very conciliating actually to hear that.
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And of course the practices, they may differ in tradition, in knowledge, in applications, in a number of ways.
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This is one of the reasons why I was really keen to speak to you because
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particularly of your generation, if I may say so, I'm just a little bit younger in terms of Reiki than you are.
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So I should say in our generation almost,
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it is not so often that people have gone and also learned like you have another practice.
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Very often we were very set in one way.
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I still practice the Usui Shiki Ryoho.
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Like I learned some 40 years, 40 years ago. (Mistake: it was 30 years ago.)
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And so ... nothing has changed.
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I have informed myself, I am in communication with people like you and I learn.
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But in terms of practice, there is ... This is it, as far as I'm concerned.
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I have nothing else to offer to my students.
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So to speak to you who has for a while now been, I would like to say the owner of two different practices
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in your own right, the owner, in your own practice, personal practice, this is very, very exciting and interesting.
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And of course, it begs the question which I brought up at the beginning, is there conflict of interest
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or is it the other thing which is the agility, the enrichment of two practices.
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So which avenue should we take first, Claire, conflict of interest and divided loyalty
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or rather the agility and the mutually beneficial?
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Well, what I would say is my practice of Jikiden Reiki has enriched my Usui Shiki Ryoho.
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I don't combine the two.
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I don't see myself as the owner of the practice.
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I've simply learned the practice, I'm a follower of the practice.
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I have strong things to say about each of them.
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But ...
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you know, there is the structure of the, for instance, my experience has been in the Reiki Alliance,
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the structure between the two methods is totally different.
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In Jikiden Reiki, Mr. Yamaguchi says the way it goes.
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It's his lineage and he says the way it goes.
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In the Usui Shiki Ryoho I learned, a lot of people felt, all entitled, drawn to change what they originally learned.
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I never had that drive.
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I've always felt, I've known many Reiki masters who really got into getting massages as opposed to a Reiki treatment.
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Wanting to do more physical things than what they felt Reiki offered.
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But that wasn't my experience of it.
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My experience of it was that it is transformational.
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...
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I may have said it already, but there's a saying, Reiki takes you where you need to go.
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So in my way of thinking, I needed to go and learn Jikiden Reiki.
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And it was hard for me because I had spent 26 years never saying Reiki symbols out loud.
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You were supposed to think them, but never say them out loud.
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In Jikiden Reiki, they are at least mouthed.
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You know, there's a, the distant Jumon is a mantra which involves the union of body, speech and mind, which is a, Buddhist concept.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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So, there is a learning curve.
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But again, I feel that people are drawn to whatever version of Reiki they're drawn to.
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And it's up to them. They have to make the decision.
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It isn't that I need to sell it to them.
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So that's basically your answer or your resolution of a potential conflict.
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In fact, you personally don't have a conflict between the two styles.
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No.
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And one resolution is if I understand you correctly, and this is a question to correct my understanding,
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I understand that you're basically leaving it to your student to ...
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feel drawn and attracted to one or the other.
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And then you provide, you go with that, which the student or the client who wants to have a treatment?
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Is there also a differentiation there for you where you have to choose in the application when you give a Reiki treatment.
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What do you say to ... ?
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I don't treat people differently.
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When I give a Reiki treatment, it's me giving the Reiki treatment.
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You know, I use my method.
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And I don't ask what type, do you want an Usui Shiki Ryoho treatment or do you want a Jikiden Reiki treatment.
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I decide that.
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Because the Reiki at the end is Reiki is Reiki is Reiki, yeah.
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Yeah. It's the same.
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And it's done the same way.
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It's not ... there's not something markedly different about a Jikiden Reiki treatment and a Usui Shiki Ryoho treatment.
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I think the advantage of having practiced Reiki for so long is that I bring to it a certain strength in transmitting Reiki
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that, a first degree Jikiden, a Shoden student or a first degree Usui Shiki Ryoho student can't possibly have.
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And you know, it's all practice, practice, practice.
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So yeah, I think it's up to the student.
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And you know, maybe it's from my legal background that I feel people should just make choices.
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You know, if I interpret the law to someone, they need to make a choice.
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Of course, if they don't follow what I'm going to say legally, I won't be their lawyer.
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You know, I won't be doing that.
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It's different in Reiki.
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It's a spiritual practice that people are drawn to.
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I met many Jikiden Reiki practitioners and Shihan and Dai Shihan who are of Japanese descent.
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For them, Jikiden Reiki is the only way.
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You know ...
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it jibes with their culture.
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I'm not surprised about that.
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Yeah, but there are a whole lot of other people in the world besides the Japanese and people of Japanese descent.
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You know, the other thing I found in the last decades, and particularly in this reconciliation work,
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speaking to so many people who do have different practices, I found very often,
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for example, something you said earlier when you said in your Usui Shiki Ryoho tradition,
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you didn't chant the names of the symbols.
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In my Usui Shiki Ryoho tradition, we actually do that too.
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I found over the years and years that often there are differences, which are more perceived
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than there are real, that even not only the Reiki, the 'energy' itself, but the actual practices,
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they're very often much, much closer and more similar than one thinks at the first glance.
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Do you find that too, or do you still see major differences?
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Oh, no, they're not major differences. Not saying the symbols or Shirushi or the distant Jamon out loud are details.
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But certainly when a person is alone, I would think that they're free to chant them.
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I never was drawn to do that.
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I was just drawn to think them.
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And ...
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I don't think it should be taught that way.
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You obviously learned a different type of Usui Shiki Ryoho than I did.
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Details are different.
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Chanting the symbols or the Shirushi, to me, is not a big deal.
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I agree.
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One way or the other, it's not something reprehensible or ...
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I think it might be positive, but I was never drawn to do that. And I wasn't trained to do that.
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To be clear, we don't teach that this needs to be done.
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It is, if you want, optional. It's a application.
0:24:46.710,0:24:53.590
But like you say, and I wouldn't like to get lost ... in details,
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because these are relatively superficial details, I think, at the end of the day.
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Well, I participated in a recent Reiki Alliance conference.
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And among other masters, they do chant the Shirushi and just say, and even, yeah.
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And even what's called the master symbol.
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But that's only in a group that are all on the same level.
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Who are all privy to the details of that technique and that knowledge.
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Right.
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Yeah, all right. Okay.
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So, you know, talking to you, I don't feel that in your experience and in your practice,
0:25:57.670,0:26:06.860
that you have a problem practicing two styles, having two practices.
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It seems to be, if I listen to you, very compatible, very mutually, not in the practice itself,
0:26:15.790,0:26:26.910
but for you as a teacher, it gives you a lot more arrows, a lot more possibilities to deal with your students.
0:26:26.910,0:26:31.310
And you're empowering your students that they're making their own choices.
0:26:31.310,0:26:37.630
So you're of better or of a more broader service to them.
0:26:37.630,0:26:41.910
So that's all nice and fine.
0:26:41.910,0:26:46.470
How about you internally at the beginning?
0:26:46.470,0:26:53.340
Were you having ... when you started in 2010, I believe you became a Shihan in Jikiden Reiki?
0:26:53.360,0:26:54.040
Yes.
0:26:55.270,0:27:03.660
At the beginning, did you have the feeling, oh, now I need to do only one thing and I have to deny the other or even ...
0:27:03.750,0:27:04.250
No.
0:27:04.350,0:27:06.730
... I can't tell people? Were you always ...?
0:27:06.730,0:27:14.310
No, you take yourself into it. You know. It's transformational, but you're the person.
0:27:15.070,0:27:17.800
You take your own history into it.
0:27:18.910,0:27:25.520
I had, in 2005, I had stage four ovarian cancer.
0:27:25.790,0:27:35.060
I had a whole support line of people treating me every time I had chemotherapy infusion.
0:27:35.550,0:27:40.990
And Usui Shiki Ryoho Reiki got me through ovarian cancer.
0:27:40.990,0:27:43.060
I don't have it.
0:27:44.190,0:27:48.530
It brought me a drug trial which worked.
0:27:48.870,0:27:55.960
So, I didn't ... I've never had a conflict.
0:27:58.410,0:28:06.230
You may not agree with me, but when I teach someone after having taken Jikiden Reiki,
0:28:06.430,0:28:14.270
when I teach someone who wants to become an Usui Shiki Ryoho Reiki master, I require that they
0:28:14.270,0:28:18.710
take Shoden and Okuden, Jikiden Reiki Shoden and Okuden.
0:28:18.710,0:28:27.940
I require that they get another view because I think it's enriching.
0:28:28.870,0:28:30.430
And that's the way I teach it.
0:28:30.430,0:28:34.190
And there again, they're free not to agree to that.
0:28:34.740,0:28:37.630
I don't disagree with that at all.
0:28:37.830,0:28:43.830
I cannot offer that to my students because I am single-minded, so to speak.
0:28:44.220,0:28:50.930
But I don't have a problem with your practice.
0:28:52.000,0:28:58.110
Because what I clearly get from you, it's always empowering the student to take his own decision.
0:28:58.110,0:29:05.840
Because if he or she doesn't like your condition and says, I want to be exclusively
0:29:06.150,0:29:09.350
Usui Shiki Ryoho and you're not prepared to do that,
0:29:09.350,0:29:16.380
well, there's the door. He can get up and walk out, or she, and she's her own master of her destiny.
0:29:16.710,0:29:26.520
Well, I happen to know more than a few Usui Shiki Ryoho masters in the Reiki Alliance who have taken Jikiden Reiki.
0:29:26.770,0:29:30.270
It's not ... I am not an outlier.
0:29:30.270,0:29:31.270
Oh, no.
0:29:31.270,0:29:32.510
Maybe I am an outlier.
0:29:32.510,0:29:38.010
But there are other people who are drawn to it.
0:29:38.350,0:29:44.540
We, my wife and I trained many years ago a Reiki master in Usui Shiki Ryoho.
0:29:44.630,0:29:50.800
And he felt ... he went to Japan, and he did Jikiden Reiki with Tadao Yamaguchi.
0:29:52.870,0:29:55.300
He became a Shihan eventually.
0:29:56.350,0:30:08.600
So I know firsthand. However, what I also know is that there was like a conflict in the sense of: what are you doing now?
0:30:08.790,0:30:11.180
Are you doing both? Or are you doing one?
0:30:11.180,0:30:18.350
Shouldn't you make up your mind and commit to one and not to both? You're indecisive.
0:30:18.350,0:30:25.750
This is the kind of decisions which the person had to make or was confronted with internally.
0:30:25.750,0:30:29.130
And externally we had that conversation.
0:30:29.770,0:30:42.600
To be honest, I at that time didn't have such a lenient, flexible attitude as I have today and as I hear from you, Claire.
0:30:43.030,0:30:50.350
I was more like, well, you've learned one thing with me. You can teach both.
0:30:50.350,0:30:56.800
I recommend that you always make clear what you're teaching and don't develop a hybrid new style on your own.
0:30:56.810,0:31:01.660
That was the same thing as Tao Yamaguchi said to you.
0:31:01.950,0:31:07.470
But at that time it was more in the air and in the zeitgeist, one or the other.
0:31:07.470,0:31:14.430
You can't be, it says in the bible, you can't be the servant of two masters, kind of thing.
0:31:14.430,0:31:17.910
I am not a big Bible person.
0:31:17.910,0:31:28.070
There are many ... that's still a conflict in the Reiki Alliance. At this last Reiki Alliance conference, I was questioned about it.
0:31:28.070,0:31:34.680
You know, well, 'What is it you're doing?' by people I've known in Reiki for 33 years.
0:31:34.900,0:31:39.950
You know, with an edge that what I was doing was not right.
0:31:40.510,0:31:44.720
And that's something I don't accept.
0:31:46.250,0:31:52.550
You know, sometimes I don't care at all what people think of me. But ...
0:31:54.470,0:32:02.830
In regard to my Reiki mastery, my being a Jikiden Reiki teacher, I don't care.
0:32:02.830,0:32:12.040
You know, it's ... I've been blessed with that, you know, lack of needing approval.
0:32:12.950,0:32:23.900
And I think a Reiki master or a Jikiden Reiki Shihan or Dai Shihan needs to do what they're drawn to do.
0:32:24.270,0:32:30.560
And there's no right or wrong as long as you do it with integrity.
0:32:35.300,0:32:37.770
Wow. Wow!
0:32:37.890,0:32:42.230
That's almost a beautiful closing of today's conversation.
0:32:42.230,0:32:46.430
That's really goosebumps and everything.
0:32:46.430,0:32:49.490
You know, and this is why I was fascinated to talk to you.
0:32:49.490,0:32:57.850
You are very, very much embodying this staying in your own integrity.
0:32:58.950,0:33:09.030
And being able to hold ... Bruce Lee (correct: Springsteen) in an interview with Trevor Noah said it's a sign of maturity
0:33:09.030,0:33:18.110
to hold two contradicting thoughts in one's mind at the same time, comes to my mind too.
0:33:18.110,0:33:21.730
And I'm not suggesting that the practices are contradictory.
0:33:22.190,0:33:28.830
But it is a sign of maturity and you put it very well in terms of ... Talk a little more
0:33:28.830,0:33:35.670
about what is the integrity of a Shihan, a Reiki teacher.
0:33:35.670,0:33:41.400
I'm using these words interchangable, synonym for each other right now.
0:33:41.710,0:33:47.080
Speak a little bit to us about your take on integrity.
0:33:47.810,0:33:59.030
Well, I feel I have to be honest about ... recently or this last weekend, one of my sisters
0:33:59.030,0:34:06.490
who has COPD was in the hospital with COVID.
0:34:07.190,0:34:22.350
And I treated her distantly using the Jikiden Reiki method of distant treatment.
0:34:22.350,0:34:26.810
And she's now at home.
0:34:27.600,0:34:33.740
You know. It's highly effective, but it's not different.
0:34:33.990,0:34:43.590
One of the things that I like about the Reiki Alliance version of Usui Shiki Ryoho
0:34:43.590,0:34:53.030
that I learned was the tradition of treating people distantly.
0:34:53.470,0:34:58.350
Even if you don't know them. They don't have to be relatives.
0:34:58.350,0:35:08.790
For me, there's a certain measure that in Jikiden Reiki you're supposed to know.
0:35:08.790,0:35:16.390
But for me, I only need to be able to envision the person and know their name.
0:35:16.390,0:35:18.390
That's it.
0:35:18.390,0:35:22.390
But that's from practicing Reiki for 33 years.
0:35:22.570,0:35:34.910
I never recommend that to a student either a first degree student, well, in first degree you don't do distant treatment.
0:35:34.910,0:35:39.270
It's the second degree student that you do distant treatment.
0:35:39.270,0:35:42.430
And it's the same in Jikiden Reiki.
0:35:42.430,0:35:46.590
A Shoden student does not learn distant treatment.
0:35:46.590,0:35:51.630
The Okuden student learns distant treatment.
0:35:51.630,0:35:56.670
It's just ... that's what I'm drawn to do.
0:35:56.670,0:36:01.430
And if someone asks me, well, what is your practice?
0:36:01.430,0:36:09.750
Well, when it comes to distant treatment, I throw everything at it, but the kitchen sink.
0:36:09.750,0:36:11.420
I do it both ways.
0:36:16.160,0:36:22.190
I don't differentiate. I don't think one is better than the other.
0:36:22.190,0:36:26.030
I'm inclined to do it one way at one time.
0:36:26.030,0:36:35.410
But with my sister, I was treating her with the Jikiden method because it was life and death.
0:36:36.870,0:36:43.630
I found that in life and death situations, that's what works for me.
0:36:43.630,0:36:45.470
It gets the result I want.
0:36:45.470,0:36:55.590
But what also gets the result I want is putting out requests for Jikiden Enkaku treatment
0:36:55.590,0:37:03.950
and also for Usui Shiki Ryoho treatment. On all of the private Facebook pages I'm in.
0:37:04.190,0:37:14.920
So it isn't ... I can't say that my sister is home just because I treated her with Jikiden Reiki Enkaku treatment.
0:37:15.390,0:37:17.830
I don't think it matters.
0:37:18.190,0:37:25.070
You know, I think it's every individual staying in integrity is doing what you believe is right.
0:37:26.110,0:37:33.350
And ... not ... you need to decide it for yourself.
0:37:33.350,0:37:42.210
Don't rely on someone you feel is older and wiser and you know.
0:37:42.800,0:37:45.590
And in my age, you can't get much older.
0:37:45.950,0:37:50.670
So it's like, yeah.
0:37:50.670,0:37:59.220
Claire, this is wonderful. I'd like to come to an end in our conversation but not without giving you
0:37:59.680,0:38:07.330
the space and time you want to say whatever you want to close this session.
0:38:07.430,0:38:08.830
How was it for you?
0:38:08.830,0:38:12.070
Do you have some parting thoughts on two practices?
0:38:12.070,0:38:18.550
Maybe even you want to address our viewers who I am sure are practicing a lot of things,
0:38:18.550,0:38:27.210
not just the two practices we were talking about with Reiki and even beyond Reiki, other practices
0:38:27.210,0:38:36.200
because the topic is absolutely translatable into other methodologies outside of Reiki.
0:38:36.270,0:38:40.710
This is not an exclusive Reiki question.
0:38:40.710,0:38:42.990
So you're parting words?
0:38:42.990,0:38:43.990
Yeah.
0:38:43.990,0:38:48.190
What I would say is, you know, I do two methods.
0:38:48.610,0:38:54.210
I've never been into changing the Reiki I learned.
0:38:54.570,0:39:00.340
I believe that people learn the Reiki they learn because they're supposed to.
0:39:01.310,0:39:08.590
And if they're ... for instance, if you are not drawn to learn Jikiden Reiki, you're not supposed to.
0:39:08.590,0:39:12.850
And it's not a matter of need.
0:39:12.850,0:39:20.200
It's a matter of your individual human development.
0:39:20.850,0:39:22.170
I'd like to come a close.
0:39:22.170,0:39:25.660
I'd like to thank you very much, Claire, for your time.
0:39:25.660,0:39:29.300
And thank you very much.
0:39:29.300,0:39:31.130
And bye-bye for now.
0:39:31.130,0:39:32.700
Well, thank you.
0:39:32.700,0:39:33.690
Bye.
0:39:33.860,0:39:35.490
Bye-bye.
0:39:37.180,0:39:39.530
Dear viewers, thank you.
0:39:39.530,0:39:43.800
And as I said, kindly subscribe.
0:39:45.620,0:39:53.570
And I hope that you will be there in three weeks’ time when we have again an RTalk
0:39:53.570,0:39:55.920
with the place where we agreed to disagree.
0:39:55.920,0:39:57.760
Bye-bye. Until then.
Arno Greter, Switzerland, 
