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Welcome to RTalk, the place where we agree to disagree - if there's a need to.
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My guest today is Kate Jones from the UK.
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Our topic: 'Service'.
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Hello Kate, how are you?
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Hi, I'm good today, thank you.
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I'm so pleased that ... We've been knowing each other for a number of years.
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I just realised that for two and a half years we were in the same working group.
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Indeed.
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Even before Corona that was and we met once the month online with a huge group internationally.
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We did indeed, yes, yes, I feel like I've known you for a long time.
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Yeah, and of course Kate for those who don't know Kate, she's been around in the Reiki scene
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and very visibly so, particularly in the UK, but internationally for many, many years.
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Looking at your biography, Kate, I realised that you're actually a Reiki Master,
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one year senior to me, I believe you finished your training as a Reiki teacher, Reiki master in 1991, right?
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That's correct, yes.
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So, in the spirit of 'just for today, I honour my elders', I honour you.
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Thank you.
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And I want to use the opportunity to get to know you a little bit ...
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maybe on topics we haven't explored together and we've agreed to speak on 'Service'.
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I'd like to introduce you to my audience for a moment.
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In her biography, Kate mentions
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the Reiki Association,
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National Occupational Standards Group for professional Practitioners,
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The (Reiki) Regulatory Working Group,
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the Reiki Council, the Alliance and many more.
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It is a rich life of service to organisations and working groups.
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Elsewhere, she summarises: "I love helping people to rediscover their wellbeing, joy and vitality.
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I offer compassionate support for positive change through the natural methods of Reiki and nutrition.
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I work to assist people in reducing stress and emotional pain to restore their balance and so, rediscover the joy of life.
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Most of all, I love to teach people so that they can help themselves
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and thereby make a greater contribution to our world."
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Oh, did I mention?
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She studied literature, philosophy and theatre in Paris, whatever that means.
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In her early days, she even had her own theatre company
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and she was focusing on folk tales from around the world.
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Kate, is this a fair summary or have I overlooked something?
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I think that's a fair summary.
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So you must have been ... I'm curious,. This Paris stint of yours.
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You must have been in your 20s, I assume.
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I was, yes, it was way back in 1984, 83, 84.
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So yes, I was in my 20s, I went to Paris just after university, after my degree
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and studied for two years there with Jacques Lecoq, Monika Pagneux and Philippe Gaulier in physical theatre.
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Which included also pantomime, I believe.
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Exactly, yes.
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And it was part of my training as a clown, which is another aspect of my work
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that perhaps you haven't mentioned.
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Well, of course, when I read this, I thought, well, I think she is missing the theatre
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and she's compensating that, the way she is serving to all these Reiki organisations
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with their drama and their comedy.
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And I also used to clown for the organisations, for the gatherings quite often.
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Yeah, that's been real fun, really fun.
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I think one of my highlights with the Reiki Alliance was clowning for the conference on Silver Mountain,
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where I was able to do what I really love to do,
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which is clown without words. To perform without words.
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And people of all nationalities were falling in the aisles, I have to say.
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I'm sure, I'm sure.
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And how unexpected, it really took me by surprise and I was thrilled.
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In fact, the RTalk I'm releasing before we release this conversation
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will be about Story and Song.
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And it's with a storyteller in New Zealand and her husband, a musician.
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And it's right down your alley.
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You'll enjoy it, I'm sure.
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It sounds like I will, yes, I love Story.
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And in my theatre company, it was all about Story.
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The folk tales were performed in the form of stories rather than making them dramatic plays.
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So they were like a great story-telling.
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I personally - we are talking on a different matter, but making a bit of a bridge -
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I personally see culture at large, but arts - theatres, visual artists -
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I see this actually as a very, very, very important contribution to society
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and it is a service to our collective wellbeing and health.
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You agree?
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Definitely. Oh, absolutely.
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I think we need stories as human beings.
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And the arts are one of the ways that we share them
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and acknowledge the stories that we have in our lives as well.
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The painters are telling their story through their art and the of course, theater and so on, it's all based on story.
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So Kate, turning to service, I mean reading your biography and talking to you and experiencing you.
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You're giving so much.
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You're, you know ... "I'm driven by serving people." "I have a strong desire to help."
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There is even a heading: "Serving the Association."
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Why are you so passionate about serving?
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What's your take on service?
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I think it's part of my spiritual practice.
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Phyllis (Furumoto) introduced me to an article by a lady called Rachel Remen some years ago.
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And that really kind of made me realise how my life has been about service, as you say.
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The article is about whether we fix, help or serve when we're helping people
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... in a health profession.
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She wrote it particularly for doctors.
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But I found it applies to us doing Reiki as well.
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And I really saw that I had tried to fix things when I first started
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and then I moved through into wanting to help.
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But where my work really took off was when I understood that ...
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it's about service.
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That through me, something can be transformed
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when I'm in that attitude of service, if you like.
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So you're suggesting there's a difference between helping people and serving people
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and it is defined through my inner attitude.
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If I'm helping, I am probably goal-orientated. I have even an expectation on the outcome.
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Whereas if I'm serving, I'm free of that?
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Is that fair?
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Yeah, to some extent. Yes, I mean, if you're a helper, then there's also a helpee,
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which makes it an unequal relationship as well.
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That's one of the things I think that's really important to me.
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Whereas if you're in service, both people are moving towards something ...
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something better, some transformation, if you like.
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And I do also feel that when in service, it's not me,
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but me in connection with something greater, which we obviously have with Reiki,
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we identify as Reiki or whatever else it might be, that works through us.
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So it's kind of taking the me-ness, the little me, out of the pictures a little,
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so that it's more expansive and actually introduces a much greater potential,
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because it's not limited by my thinking.
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It's what we can create together.
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I hear you.
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It's of course potentially a somewhat elitarian look on life,
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or it could be - with ill intention - it could be interpreted that way.
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But I don't necessarily want to go there or not yet in our conversation.
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...
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If I ask you, who would be a person who embodies service
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in that noble spirit of which you just described?
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Does anyone particularly come to your mind? A personality everybody knows?
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I would say Nelson Mandela would be one.
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Who's been inspired by .... There you go.
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Yeah, Gandhi.
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This is a beautiful quote, and it sort of, to me, says everything positive and noble
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about the idea of servicing as you embody it.
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"The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others." (Mahatma Gandhi)
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Yeah, that's lovely.
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It is wonderful. And yet, there's still the 'I' in it.
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Yes.
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I am finding myself.
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Yes.
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And I think that's appropriate because we are part of the picture.
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It is I who serve.
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It is this body, it's this mind, as well as whatever I'm connecting to.
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I think one of the things ... One of my passions is actually about self-care as well.
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And in order to really serve, we also need to take care of ourselves
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and to understand ourselves as well as possible,
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and to be as conscious as we can in our actions and in our interactions with other people.
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So yeah, I'd agree with Gandhi that the best way to find yourself is through service.
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Because it actually means you understand that you are not disconnected from everybody
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and everything around you.
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Because in service, you obviously need to be in some form of connection.
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Even if it's when in service to ourselves, in taking care of ourselves, and you know,
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there's a well-known saying about:
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If you want to pour out for other people, you need to be a filled jug yourself.
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If you want to ...
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Again, slowly, if you want to ...?
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Imagine I'm a jug of water and I want to pour out, fill your glass, I need to be filled.
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So I do think that it's not about ignoring ourselves or not taking care of ourselves.
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Actually, someone who is truly able to serve is truly also able to care for themselves.
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So the self does come into it.
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Yeah, and I think the Greek word for I is ego
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and in that context, the self is the ego, the I, is not necessarily representative for
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the 'ego' in the sense of egotistical, I fix you. I know what you need.
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That kind of thing.
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Still, I want to stay for a moment with this less noble side of serving.
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I mentioned it to you in our preliminary talk that I have very much an attitude like yourself towards service.
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To me, serving humanity, in fact serving the Reiki community with my work
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is a great privilege and a noble calling in my book.
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So, I use the verb serve, to serve, very much in that sense.
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I recently had correspondence with a trainee of ours.
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In fact, she trains to become a Reiki teacher.
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In the training, we reached a point where I was a little bit at loss, why we were stuck together.
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I gave her some ideas and some thoughts and some maybe recommendations, I can't remember,
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but I ended my communication with: How can I be of service to you?
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I want to share with you the response that I received from her:
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"That is a formulation I cannot accept.
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Give me advice, be helpful, yes, but you are not my servant."
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And that was an interesting experience because it made me think a little bit how she interpreted 'serving'.
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And of course, if we're looking at the origin of the verb 'serve', we discover or I discovered
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today, preparing myself, something rather interesting.
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From Latin, 'servire': "be a servant, in service, enslaved"
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figuratively "be devoted, governed by, comply with, conform, flatter", originally "be a slave".
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So of course, we have the upper crusts, we have the church, it's a hot topic in Europe,
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Switzerland and Germany, with the church abusing their power.
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And of course, their definition of being in service to an ideology or to be in service to God,
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often has been abused.
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So maybe it's not coincidental that the lady I was referring to was actually born in the eastern part of Germany.
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Ah.
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Exactly.
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So, she doesn't have this high-brow attitude about serving as we have expressed so far.
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So how do you deal with that?
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Kate, tell me a little bit, what's your take on that?
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Well, I noticed that she said you could give her advice and you could tell her what to do,
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but not be her ... Well, she said, yeah, give advice and be helpful,
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be a helper or somebody who's going to fix what I want, but don't be my servant.
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So actually, she's bringing in those other two qualities and saying you can do that,
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I feel safe with that, but this other aspect of being in service, I feel uncomfortable with.
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I don't agree with the former part, but with the latter part, I agree.
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That's the one I want to zero in.
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Yes.
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Looking at the origin of the word, I can see why people are saying,
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no, no, no, no, there is a dark side to ...
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And let's face it, you and I are relatively privileged, even within our own community,
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we belong to the senior people and many respect us for that.
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We are privileged in many other ways, and there are many people out there
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who can't take that high-flying attitude of wanting to be at service to humanity
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because they're battling for survival.
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When you're in that survival mode, it's difficult, but it isn't impossible.
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As I said, one of my inspirations was Nelson Mandela, and he was definitely in survival mode
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when he was in prison, and yet from that experience,
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he became somebody who completely understood service in the spiritual sense.
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Not in the sense of servant and master,
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although that was interestingly the context in which he learned about this
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because it was about the difference between the races, it was about servant and master.
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But from his experience of incarceration and that very, very difficult situation that he was in,
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he went through an awakening and he surrendered, I would say, to what was happening.
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That is what was the key to his becoming in service to humanity and the transformation that he went through.
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So, I mean, interestingly, the aristocratic thing, part of their philosophy is the duty of care,
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which is about ... they have a duty to look after those who serve.
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So in, you know, former days, not now so much perhaps, but certainly in former days,
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there was this kind of symbiotic relationship,
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so that those who were being served had a duty to care for those who were serving them,
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and vice versa, you know, when it was working well, I guess,
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they also cared about what they were there to do, which was in service.
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Well, and substitute 'aristocracy' with the word 'corporations', and it's an issue right now, right here.
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Right. Yeah.
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So I'm with you there.
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I have prepared a small video, not yet on Nelson Mandela, I also got there, but let's have a look together.
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Okay.
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Really, they did see quite a lot of him. Even his knees.
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No, he won't speak into the microphone.
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And so to his Popular home, where we leave this bizarre little man who's coming has caused
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so much comment, complete with loincloth, spinning wheel and goat's milk,
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feeling sure that he cannot complain of his reception, or the publicity he has received, from which,
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by the way, we always understood that he shrank.
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I heard you chuckle there when the commentator was speaking about his naked knees.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Well, actually, this was when Mahatma Gandhi for the first time went to the UK in 1931.
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The naked knees, the loincloth, the spinning wheel and the goat's milk, all were mentioned
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and they were an issue.
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In fact, he was asked before he went on this trip, are you going to wear 'civilized clothing'.
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And he said, no.
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Of course, these things are an expression of civil disobedience.
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To be at service is not only to comply with others.
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There isn't just rendering service, giving, there is sometimes also the need to take opposition.
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You mentioned Nelson Mandela and let me add this also.
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Divisions in India.
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Gandhi became a symbol of truth and non-violence throughout the world.
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To all South Africans.
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Today is a day like no other before.
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And since his death, others have used Gandhi's method of Satyāgraha to fight for peace.
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So here we have Martin Luther King as well as Nelson Mandela.
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There is this common thread of the civil disobedience.
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How disobedient are you? Where are you ...?
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I can be quite disobedient as well.
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I think it's about being authentic, actually. Authentic to a truth.
0:22:26.480,0:22:36.300
I think true service is about being authentic to our truth and a greater truth than our personal truth, actually.
0:22:38.040,0:22:44.770
I would say I'm faithful if you like to a particular form of Reiki
0:22:46.680,0:22:50.740
and I'm quite happy to stand up for that even if other people are disagreeing.
0:22:50.740,0:22:53.160
And have done on many occasions.
0:22:53.160,0:23:00.760
So I can be quite disruptive in some ways and not just going along with the crowd.
0:23:00.990,0:23:01.920
But ...
0:23:02.670,0:23:04.830
Give me an example.
0:23:06.240,0:23:11.160
Well, we had a very interesting discussion in Reiki Council recently about
0:23:11.170,0:23:15.880
whether online initiation should be acceptable for professional practitioners.
0:23:16.690,0:23:21.880
And I was very adamant that it was not appropriate.
0:23:24.960,0:23:31.580
I think a lot of people were in agreement but might have been swayed by the other argument
0:23:31.950,0:23:36.110
if I hadn't stood up for my truth.
0:23:37.980,0:23:44.210
Which I felt was not my personal truth actually but the truth of a certain community of Reiki.
0:23:44.880,0:23:54.650
So yeah, I don't have a problem with being disruptive with differing in opinion
0:23:55.090,0:24:00.200
if it feels like it's in the greatest sense of truth.
0:24:00.400,0:24:10.010
In the way that Gandhi and Mandela and so on were speaking the truth for humanity
0:24:10.010,0:24:16.590
about respect and that every human being should be respected.
0:24:16.720,0:24:18.820
And I'm totally with that.
0:24:19.520,0:24:26.080
I'm a little bit surprised and pleasantly surprised that you picked up that example of your
0:24:26.080,0:24:33.990
disruptiveness or your potential to be disruptive in context with the absentee initiation.
0:24:34.430,0:24:39.370
...
0:24:40.130,0:24:46.380
Isn't there ... What are you going to do with people who have ...
0:24:47.220,0:24:54.600
Particularly in an inclusive organization where people agree to disagree,
0:24:55.120,0:24:59.960
what are you going to do with people who say, well - and I belong to that group -
0:25:00.320,0:25:08.780
there are certain parameters, clearly definable exceptional parameters and not for a Reiki seminar,
0:25:09.230,0:25:20.710
but if a person is in dire need and there are no apparent other solutions within a time constraint,
0:25:21.680,0:25:28.590
then these absentee initiations have a justification.
0:25:28.770,0:25:39.690
So, isn't your disruptiveness, your strong truth potentially borderline to being dogmatic?
0:25:40.400,0:25:46.720
No, because it's not about the distant or absent initiations per se.
0:25:47.100,0:25:52.010
It's about those initiations in the context of professional practitioners.
0:25:52.320,0:25:55.840
So in other words, people are going to be giving Reiki to another person.
0:25:56.990,0:25:59.380
We actually acknowledge the fact that ....
0:26:02.140,0:26:06.000
Well, the fact is these distant initiations happen.
0:26:08.240,0:26:13.370
I mean, I don't know without knowing exactly the circumstances how appropriate it would be.
0:26:13.920,0:26:20.570
I personally wouldn't, I can't think of a situation that I would feel it was that desperate,
0:26:21.320,0:26:25.330
that distant Reiki couldn't be as helpful.
0:26:26.190,0:26:33.420
But I acknowledge that that's my opinion and other people feel differently.
0:26:34.080,0:26:41.710
But this was very much in the context of us giving a recognition to practitioners
0:26:41.750,0:26:46.390
to set them out into the public domain. And that just didn't feel appropriate.
0:26:46.520,0:26:49.090
I see. I understand better now.
0:26:49.480,0:26:57.860
I'm happy to give you examples where I believe that it would be perfectly permissible and ethically sound.
0:26:58.760,0:27:06.280
And I'd be very willing - other occasion - to enter a discussion about how the parameters
0:27:06.280,0:27:16.930
could be described within which such a helpful intervention could be acceptable.
0:27:17.030,0:27:20.530
But let's get back to the topic of service.
0:27:20.570,0:27:23.040
I'm glad we made this detour because it's a little bit ...
0:27:23.230,0:27:24.560
I have a question.
0:27:24.560,0:27:25.990
Does it serve?
0:27:26.190,0:27:31.110
Does it serve people to receive an initiation without a master present?
0:27:32.830,0:27:34.960
Well, what do you think my answer is?
0:27:35.510,0:27:37.440
Well, you obviously think it does.
0:27:37.840,0:27:40.150
And I think we may have a difference of opinion there.
0:27:40.200,0:27:41.010
Really?
0:27:41.010,0:27:41.570
Yeah.
0:27:41.570,0:27:44.760
If it's a life threatening situation with people...
0:27:44.760,0:27:48.610
Yeah, why isn't a distant treatment enough?
0:27:49.560,0:27:57.970
A distant treatment is working fair enough for the duration while I treat and with consecutive effect.
0:27:58.210,0:28:07.880
But the person on the spot may want to treat him- or herself or may want to do the self-treat
0:28:07.880,0:28:13.480
and hence the absentee initiation in my opinion has a justification.
0:28:14.630,0:28:24.200
In one of the most moving examples, it was actually an entire family,
0:28:24.200,0:28:31.630
parents and two children who had lost by suicide, their brother, one of the ...
0:28:32.920,0:28:36.620
The parents had a third child and he committed suicide.
0:28:37.740,0:28:44.680
A Reiki practitioner was on the spot giving treatments, not even absentee treatment,
0:28:44.680,0:28:54.310
but physical on the spot treatment, which I would in situations like that prefer
0:28:54.600,0:28:57.280
over even absentee treatment.
0:28:57.320,0:28:58.030
Yeah.
0:28:59.570,0:29:03.850
The despair was such that - this practitioner had to go back home -
0:29:03.860,0:29:13.400
that they called us in Switzerland, my wife and me, and asked if we could do absentee initiation.
0:29:14.400,0:29:15.390
We did.
0:29:16.670,0:29:25.790
We had the woman on the spot support the recipients, the four people who got initiated.
0:29:26.960,0:29:28.960
We gave them instructions.
0:29:29.280,0:29:34.780
This was pre-internet connections and that kind of communication.
0:29:34.950,0:29:37.940
...
0:29:38.660,0:29:46.880
The woman then left after two or three days and the family - the two parents happened to be doctors by the way -
0:29:47.060,0:29:49.180
They later came to ...
0:29:50.820,0:29:57.590
Incidentally they saw the effect when they went back to work, when they touched their patients.
0:29:57.960,0:29:59.920
This just as a side comment.
0:30:01.480,0:30:06.050
And they came about a month or so or maybe two months later
0:30:06.050,0:30:11.420
they came, actually the whole family, to do a proper seminar.
0:30:11.640,0:30:14.660
We explained to them this is only a temporary solution.
0:30:14.660,0:30:15.530
Right.
0:30:15.780,0:30:23.230
So very rudimentarily, I've described a situation where I think it would be quite ...
0:30:24.660,0:30:29.150
I can hardly imagine that anyone would object to that.
0:30:29.560,0:30:31.090
Would you like to object?
0:30:31.920,0:30:38.050
Well I'm just wondering whether it was fixing or helping? Or was it really serving?
0:30:39.160,0:30:40.280
How ... ?
0:30:40.420,0:30:42.770
I'm not going to ask a question back.
0:30:44.520,0:30:46.940
I'm willing to answer that.
0:30:48.040,0:30:56.190
I think the answer to that question is entirely, entirely and absolutely my own to answer.
0:30:57.240,0:30:59.260
Yes. I agree.
0:31:00.970,0:31:02.850
And I would not ...
0:31:02.960,0:31:17.100
I'm not responsible to give an answer to an organization, to my own Reiki teacher, not even to the law.
0:31:17.760,0:31:22.140
If at all there is an authority it would be my conscience.
0:31:23.000,0:31:31.950
Or if I had to believe in God - which I do - that would be the ultimate authority for me to answer that question to.
0:31:31.950,0:31:32.560
Yeah.
0:31:32.970,0:31:40.650
But the parameters the persons - the Reiki teacher, I - are going through,
0:31:40.660,0:31:44.420
the considerations, they can be helpful to be discussed
0:31:44.420,0:31:52.120
and in fact, I believe that professional associations can be helpful by for example
0:31:52.120,0:31:59.650
having a committee where people in doubt could call and say I have this emergency, does it justify?
0:31:59.670,0:32:07.330
And the committee might say no, we have somebody on the spot right there, he could go by, there's no need.
0:32:09.410,0:32:18.080
Or parameters to define as guidelines, as ethical guidelines to answer the question, why are you doing it?
0:32:18.080,0:32:19.850
Because that's basically what you asked me.
0:32:19.850,0:32:20.340
Yeah.
0:32:20.340,0:32:22.920
René, did you do it in service?
0:32:22.920,0:32:25.740
Or did you try and fix something?
0:32:25.740,0:32:26.630
Yeah.
0:32:27.290,0:32:28.960
And you know what my answer is?
0:32:28.960,0:32:31.660
Or would you be helpful? Were you trying to be helpful?
0:32:32.390,0:32:36.500
Yes, exactly. And you know what my answer is, even though I never said it to you,
0:32:37.190,0:32:39.840
but it's obvious what my answer is.
0:32:40.020,0:32:40.550
Yes.
0:32:40.550,0:32:46.480
I'm happy at the end of the day when I knock the Pearly Gates and the old man with the white beard comes out,
0:32:46.670,0:32:48.630
I'm happy to look in his eyes.
0:32:48.850,0:32:55.470
At least what concerns that situation; there are other situations in my life here, where I'm not so sure.
0:32:56.080,0:33:01.490
Yeah, I don't think ... I'm not asking that question about saying what's right or wrong.
0:33:01.720,0:33:05.720
I just, you know, it's not about, did I do the right thing?
0:33:05.960,0:33:13.950
It's about, as you said, the motivation and really looking at that and where am I coming from in making that choice?
0:33:14.020,0:33:17.120
Is it from trying to sort something out for somebody else?
0:33:17.120,0:33:20.900
Because sometimes I think service includes doing nothing.
0:33:21.750,0:33:23.410
Or doing the opposite.
0:33:25.680,0:33:32.100
Or doing the opposite of ...? So in that situation, what would be the opposite?
0:33:32.450,0:33:33.290
We're ...
0:33:33.430,0:33:39.680
In that situation? The opposite would be not only to do nothing but to refuse.
0:33:41.040,0:33:51.410
Okay. This is maybe a hypothetical conversation now revolving around absentee initiation.
0:33:51.550,0:34:02.350
And I was actually referring to the topic of service because Gandhi went to England for a purpose.
0:34:04.020,0:34:09.270
He expressed that purpose by carrying his loincloth.
0:34:11.600,0:34:19.120
That's where the civil disobedience aspect ... And like you said yourself earlier on in the conversation,
0:34:19.940,0:34:24.440
even people who are less privileged in their own right,
0:34:26.990,0:34:32.680
the mindset or the heart set, maybe more precisely, can still be in service.
0:34:33.240,0:34:34.250
Absolutely.
0:34:34.500,0:34:38.160
Are you ready to change the subject or you still want to talk about ... ?
0:34:38.160,0:34:41.100
Oh no, I'm happy with the flow, that's fine.
0:34:41.630,0:34:42.800
(uplifting music playing)
0:34:42.960,0:34:46.180
In this video, for legal reasons, we cannot show the clips that René has presented to Kate.
0:34:46.180,0:34:48.560
You'll find the link to the clip in the description.
0:34:49.090,0:34:51.190
In 1963, The Beatles toured the USA for the first time.
0:34:51.190,0:34:54.180
They insisted in their contract that their audience not be segregated by race.
0:34:54.330,0:34:57.440
During the concerts, white and black people met each other for the first time ever.
0:34:57.620,0:35:00.930
This, in turn, had a historic influence on the Civil Rights movement in the USA.
0:35:01.420,0:35:05.680
Dr. Kitty Oliver and Whoopi Goldberg described in a documentary the liberating effect the event had on them
0:35:06.810,0:35:08.860
In one scene Ringo Starr explained:
0:35:09.040,0:35:11.760
"We played to people. That's what we did.
0:35:11.870,0:35:15.510
We didn't play those people or that people.
0:35:15.780,0:35:17.460
We just played to people."
0:35:18.110,0:35:19.510
That's so wonderful.
0:35:19.510,0:35:25.610
I mean, you know, Ringo Starr isn't Mahatma Gandhi or Nelson Mandela, but ...
0:35:26.220,0:35:27.730
Yeah, I agree with you.
0:35:28.240,0:35:31.580
He is quite an enlightened guy, even so.
0:35:32.710,0:35:38.400
Yeah, and every one of us, and to me, Ringo Starr now embodies the everyone.
0:35:38.400,0:35:42.570
Okay, we're not The Beatles, we don't have contracts to sign, multimillion contracts.
0:35:42.720,0:35:49.420
But that attitude, that core attitude he expressed, we played to people, we didn't separate.
0:35:51.000,0:35:53.530
That to me is very much ...
0:35:53.610,0:36:00.180
And he broke down - or rather The Beatles broke down, helped break down the barriers of segregation.
0:36:00.240,0:36:08.080
I had no idea how influential they were until Whoopi Goldberg or this Dr. Kitty Oliver,
0:36:08.080,0:36:17.270
the woman in the video, mentioned how they were catalyst for major change.
0:36:17.270,0:36:21.990
Brilliant. Yes, I didn't know about that, but it doesn't surprise me.
0:36:22.430,0:36:24.080
And it's civil disobedience.
0:36:24.240,0:36:26.080
It is, yeah.
0:36:26.490,0:36:27.540
Yeah.
0:36:28.080,0:36:31.900
It's something in service of a greater whole as well.
0:36:33.900,0:36:36.740
Yeah. I agree with you.
0:36:37.780,0:36:41.770
You're stopping every time there's a red light?
0:36:44.360,0:36:50.860
I do. Because ... to protect the safety of others.
0:36:53.080,0:36:53.880
Right.
0:36:55.540,0:37:01.410
Even when you're walking and there isn't a car in miles on the road.
0:37:01.410,0:37:04.760
Oh, crossing the road, that's different.
0:37:04.770,0:37:07.680
If I'm in a car, I have the potential to kill somebody.
0:37:08.010,0:37:10.730
If I'm walking, it's only me that's taking a risk.
0:37:10.770,0:37:15.730
And if there's nothing around, if I can use my common sense and cross the road safely, I'll do that.
0:37:15.730,0:37:16.730
Yeah.
0:37:17.570,0:37:20.710
I believe that in the UK it's not against the law to do that.
0:37:20.710,0:37:24.080
I think in some countries, you might be breaking the law to do that.
0:37:24.520,0:37:26.010
To jaywalk, you mean?
0:37:26.140,0:37:27.060
Yeah.
0:37:27.070,0:37:32.630
Okay. But what about the crossing in the car and you got somebody dying
0:37:33.460,0:37:40.120
who needs to get to the hospital real fast and you're going through London Central and there is a red light?
0:37:40.730,0:37:46.180
Well, interestingly, I had a student who was in a desperate situation,
0:37:46.180,0:37:51.880
was being led by a police car that went through a red light.
0:37:51.880,0:37:55.340
She followed because she thought there must be some kind of thing that they'd organised
0:37:55.510,0:37:57.740
and her car was hit by another car.
0:37:57.980,0:38:03.100
She ended up with fractures that she hadn't, you know, worse than she had even before.
0:38:03.100,0:38:07.490
So I remember that as a cautionary tale and I would be extremely ...
0:38:07.490,0:38:11.440
I'm not an ambulance driver, they can drive through red lights.
0:38:11.440,0:38:14.830
I think I would have to stop and make sure it was safe.
0:38:15.000,0:38:18.860
I might very slowly go through if it was really a desperate situation,
0:38:18.990,0:38:21.400
but hopefully I'll never have to deal with that.
0:38:21.400,0:38:27.640
Yes, I hope it never does happen. But to me, that's a good example ...
0:38:28.880,0:38:33.600
to slow down, be cautious and then make up your own mind and own decision.
0:38:33.600,0:38:41.210
And basically, this train of thought, of course, tried to show that laws, rules,
0:38:41.230,0:38:45.880
they are arrangement for society to find their way and to protect each other.
0:38:46.020,0:38:47.420
And they make sense.
0:38:47.670,0:39:03.790
But they're not a brick wall, a prison and a rigid, jaded, natural law of ... a nature law.
0:39:05.000,0:39:11.440
And I think, like in this example, slow down and make sure that nobody hits you from the behind.
0:39:11.770,0:39:20.690
And that it's safe ... but then go, even if it's still red, at least that's what I would do, similarly like you.
0:39:21.420,0:39:26.870
Yeah, I think it's about a... you know, what nourishes and preserves life,
0:39:27.330,0:39:30.250
and as much as possible.
0:39:31.360,0:39:38.670
You know, and not just our own, but those around us as well, taking all of that into account.
0:39:39.760,0:39:44.820
Is that somewhat of a definition of service towards the end of our conversation?
0:39:46.960,0:39:52.630
In the interests of supporting all life, I guess, yeah.
0:39:54.450,0:39:56.370
It's not an easy thing to do,
0:39:58.120,0:40:02.250
because there are things that conflict.
0:40:02.500,0:40:08.020
So we have to decide ... what serves best?
0:40:08.130,0:40:12.700
What is best in service of as many as possible? Or ...
0:40:13.980,0:40:16.620
Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it, sometimes?
0:40:16.710,0:40:21.370
But if we really listen, as you say, to the natural laws
0:40:22.240,0:40:27.910
and to what feels right in our heart and in our spirit ...
0:40:29.120,0:40:33.620
You know, like apartheid was definitely not, didn't feel right for a lot of people.
0:40:34.550,0:40:39.330
And therefore, you know, civil disobedience was important and needed.
0:40:39.540,0:40:44.380
But also violence was not good in the heart and the spirit.
0:40:44.480,0:40:48.750
And so other ways were found, you know, that were more peaceful.
0:40:48.930,0:40:56.840
And I think that you picked up a key word, civil disobedience is actually defined 'nonviolent'.
0:40:56.960,0:40:57.740
Yes.
0:40:57.740,0:41:01.390
That's what you just said, a very important point.
0:41:01.400,0:41:02.150
Yeah.
0:41:02.640,0:41:05.570
You know, I went as a young man to South Africa.
0:41:05.720,0:41:12.830
I could have known what apartheid is if I had listened or spoken to people.
0:41:12.970,0:41:15.850
Never mind there was no internet, but I could have.
0:41:15.880,0:41:22.690
But the opportunity, the adventure, the professional challenge was such that I said I went.
0:41:23.510,0:41:33.750
And I found out the injustice and the unbearable segregation was too much for me on the spot.
0:41:34.000,0:41:41.100
And I quit my job at the earliest convenience against all the advice of my colleagues,
0:41:41.540,0:41:44.570
because it was career-wise the wrong move to make.
0:41:44.800,0:41:51.080
But my consciousness and which I guess, and that's a question, Kate, is consciousness
0:41:51.080,0:41:59.520
another word ... no, conscience, is that another word for what you just referred to the language of the heart and the mind?
0:42:00.570,0:42:02.800
Yeah, I guess conscience.
0:42:02.970,0:42:09.160
And I also think that the other word you used 'consciousness' is also very apt, because
0:42:09.160,0:42:15.320
it's through becoming more conscious and more aware of our effect in the world and how
0:42:15.320,0:42:24.450
we can contribute and the ripples that go out from our actions and even just our being.
0:42:25.200,0:42:27.840
The more conscious we can be about that, I think the more
0:42:27.920,0:42:33.890
we can have a positive, helpful influence in the world. And be of service.
0:42:34.440,0:42:35.970
And be of service.
0:42:36.700,0:42:40.010
Wonderful closing of our conversation.
0:42:40.060,0:42:46.770
Kate, is there a final comment, the words of wisdom you would like to add?
0:42:47.830,0:42:50.680
I don't think I have any words of wisdom.
0:42:51.400,0:42:52.930
I think you do.
0:42:54.160,0:42:55.080
Thank you.
0:42:55.630,0:42:56.800
Thank you very much.
0:42:56.800,0:42:59.130
I'm saying goodbye to you Kate.
0:42:59.280,0:43:01.320
Thank you for having joined me.
0:43:01.890,0:43:05.560
Dear viewers, thank you for having watched.
0:43:05.710,0:43:11.160
I wish you a wonderful day, evening, wherever you are.
0:43:11.290,0:43:13.920
I hope you watch us again in three weeks' time.
0:43:13.920,0:43:17.170
Please subscribe and bye-bye.
