0:00:01.520,0:00:05.629
Welcome to RTalk, the place where we agreed to disagree.
0:00:05.960,0:00:14.720
Today, my topic is 'motherhood'.
And the guest is Ashwita Goel from India.
0:00:24.739,0:00:26.470
Hello Ashwita, welcome.
0:00:27.020,0:00:29.160
Thank you. Namaste.
0:00:30.170,0:00:31.330
Namaste to you.
0:00:32.990,0:00:34.219
You know, I was ...
0:00:36.979,0:00:40.480
wondering whether I should introduce us being ...
0:00:40.890,0:00:49.510
It's rather an audacity for a childless woman like you
and for a man to talk about the topic of motherhood.
0:00:49.759,0:00:50.590
So ...
0:00:51.420,0:00:57.380
but before we get into the topic, let me
quickly introduce you to my viewers.
0:00:57.920,0:01:07.159
Ashwita Goel is in India and has 23 years of experience
with different practices, healing practices, that is.
0:01:07.609,0:01:17.450
She is a second generation healer who was exposed
to a plethora - a word I didn't know before I met you -
0:01:17.870,0:01:24.130
of spiritual teachers learning meditation
and yoga already as a little girl.
0:01:24.790,0:01:28.849
During her early teens, her mother became a Reiki master.
0:01:29.480,0:01:36.019
Ashwita spent the next many years assisting her,
not realizing what she was being prepared for.
0:01:37.370,0:01:44.420
After a few years as a software engineer,
Ashwita transitioned into holistic healing and
0:01:44.503,0:01:53.540
took up Reiki professionally in 2007 to help
those around her cope with the fast-paced
0:01:53.780,0:01:58.310
lifestyles prevalent to India's Silicon Valley.
0:01:59.569,0:02:07.640
Ashwita combines ancient teachings with
contemporary ideologies and is an avid writer.
0:02:08.060,0:02:10.610
She has seven books to her name.
0:02:11.150,0:02:18.650
Please, dear viewers do check the description on
our page, which we are going to make for Ashwita.
0:02:18.733,0:02:21.540
You will find the references to her books also.
0:02:21.790,0:02:25.930
Welcome Ashwita, how happy are you with my introduction?
0:02:26.013,0:02:27.110
Did I leave something out?
0:02:27.740,0:02:29.000
No, it was perfect.
0:02:31.050,0:02:32.139
That's good to hear.
0:02:32.223,0:02:33.569
I'm pleased to hear that.
0:02:35.789,0:02:41.939
You know, I was referring to the audacity and ...
0:02:43.710,0:02:49.949
I learnt a lot preparing for this RTalk with you.
0:02:50.669,0:02:54.560
Even the words 'antinatalism' I wrote down.
0:02:54.790,0:02:58.259
I know that's a word you're going to pick up on later.
0:03:00.840,0:03:10.950
But in my personal experience, being a father of two
grown men today, 35 and 36 olds, the two of them are,
0:03:11.750,0:03:26.400
So, having been a parent and my wife being a full blooded,
sensual woman who reveled in her motherhood,
0:03:29.240,0:03:36.020
it often happens that when we met people who did
not have children, whether they were women
0:03:36.103,0:03:38.880
or men, it doesn't matter ...
0:03:40.870,0:03:47.140
we noticed that when we spoke to them, sometimes
we - my wife and I - looked at each other
0:03:47.920,0:03:51.080
and in our look, there was an exchange:
"She doesn't know".
0:03:51.830,0:03:54.919
She doesn't know how it is to be a mother or a father.
0:03:55.710,0:03:56.389
Do you know that?
0:03:56.539,0:04:03.729
Have you been on the receiving end of such a
little bit down your nose kind of being looked at?
0:04:04.340,0:04:06.420
Probably only from my mother
0:04:11.270,0:04:17.610
In the sense that, no, I don't think anyone
has ever told me, I don't know what it's like
0:04:18.140,0:04:22.129
because as a healer ... Sorry, let me just plug in my charger.
0:04:23.279,0:04:26.790
We checked everything but this ...
0:04:28.250,0:04:35.080
As healers we do learn to empathize
with the pains and everything.
0:04:35.210,0:04:39.050
My sister has a child, so, you know, we discuss a lot of things.
0:04:41.029,0:04:44.920
Of course, if I were to have a child, I'm not saying: ...
0:04:45.150,0:04:48.649
"I'm going to be such a great parent.
You guys don't know how to do it right."
0:04:49.009,0:04:53.250
That's not there either, you know, so there's
way less incentive for them to say that.
0:04:54.750,0:05:00.170
My mother does say that having children changes you,
0:05:02.120,0:05:06.150
which, you know, if you don't have children,
you don't mature in certain ways.
0:05:06.340,0:05:08.529
But I have my own retort to that.
0:05:08.613,0:05:10.939
So, oh, please do.
0:05:11.023,0:05:13.399
I'm curious. So, I'm saying to you.
0:05:13.670,0:05:16.980
Come on. I know what motherhood it's all about.
0:05:17.103,0:05:20.930
How can you? And, you never grow up
till you've had your own children!
0:05:21.079,0:05:22.009
Exactly.
0:05:22.093,0:05:22.719
Yeah.
0:05:22.802,0:05:25.610
And I mean, I genuinely don't want to hurt anyone.
0:05:26.490,0:05:27.889
That's why I did not say it.
0:05:27.973,0:05:32.089
But I mean, when I heard that for the first time, I said, you know:
0:05:32.839,0:05:34.710
"Being jailed also changes you."
0:05:34.870,0:05:38.990
Just get jailed for like a week and
you will never be the same again.
0:05:39.073,0:05:44.480
Try to talk to somebody who has done drugs and
they will tell you it changes you and having to
0:05:44.563,0:05:49.639
recover from that, right, being an addict and then recovering
from that changes you, it gives you a certain depth.
0:05:50.300,0:05:53.480
So every single experience gives you a certain depth.
0:05:54.240,0:05:57.430
Going for, you know ... jumping off a plane gives you ...
0:05:57.430,0:05:59.410
Every single experience changes you.
0:05:59.493,0:06:05.839
And for me to see that as a measure of someone's
character or worse is, I think it's just lame.
0:06:06.529,0:06:08.060
So let me change the subject.
0:06:08.143,0:06:09.769
There's a painting behind you.
0:06:10.110,0:06:12.019
Well, can you tell me more about it?
0:06:13.319,0:06:18.240
This is not the original, this is a print.
0:06:20.439,0:06:28.240
My art teacher exhibits internationally, and he
wanted to bring his work to India predominantly,
0:06:28.390,0:06:30.550
because he felt it wasn't up to the mark.
0:06:31.750,0:06:38.800
And so obviously he found me interesting
because, you know, he was like:
0:06:38.883,0:06:41.680
"You're a very interesting mix of complete opposites.
0:06:42.189,0:06:45.670
You're very modern in your outlook, in the way you dress,
0:06:45.820,0:06:48.779
but then you're very traditional in a whole lot of other aspects.
0:06:48.863,0:06:51.320
So it's like ... you don't make sense."
0:06:51.320,0:06:55.089
And for an artist, I think that's very ... you know, interesting.
0:06:55.173,0:06:57.250
So he was like: "Can I paint you?"
0:06:57.333,0:07:01.540
And honestly, when he asked me, he said:
"Can I paint you as Durga?"
0:07:01.623,0:07:06.090
Which is like, you know, THE goddess in India.
0:07:08.350,0:07:10.620
I was so excited, I said:
0:07:10.700,0:07:16.079
"Wow, so I'm going to get to dress in these beautiful
clothes, they're going to look like a goddess."
0:07:16.163,0:07:19.400
He said: "Why can't you be a goddess in normal clothes?"
0:07:20.190,0:07:26.630
I was like: "Oh. So can I then wear something, you know, like
0:07:26.630,0:07:31.689
I'm mostly in all these short dresses,
can I wear what I usually wear?"
0:07:31.773,0:07:34.440
And he said:
"No, that's not acceptable because I don't want legs.
0:07:34.570,0:07:39.310
If you have legs. You know, the whole
painting goes in a different direction."
0:07:39.393,0:07:41.949
So we went through a lot of things.
0:07:42.033,0:07:45.950
What matches, you know, what contrasts with the background?
0:07:46.000,0:07:49.190
We wanted it in the dark.
We wanted three different sources of light.
0:07:49.959,0:07:51.879
So, yeah, it's a painting of me.
0:07:52.209,0:07:53.410
It's a life painting.
0:07:53.493,0:07:58.810
That's why it's not that accurate, because,
you know, he's painting in pitch darkness.
0:07:59.709,0:08:07.959
And yeah, it was two painful weeks because I had
to pose like that and I would sleep with heat packs all night.
0:08:08.769,0:08:09.395
Yeah.
0:08:09.479,0:08:15.810
You know, you were talking about the experiences,
life experiences changing us one way or the other.
0:08:15.893,0:08:16.519
And ...
0:08:17.980,0:08:21.490
If I may ... I'm not a mother, but I'm a father.
0:08:21.573,0:08:22.199
And ...
0:08:24.009,0:08:28.500
Here is actually my mother, a portrait of my mother,
0:08:29.240,0:08:33.220
and this is actually a portrait of my son.
0:08:33.580,0:08:42.370
And this portrait was part and parcel of
his ritual into manhood when he was 21.
0:08:42.730,0:08:47.710
It was a long, drawn out process, obviously,
but then we ritualistically celebrated it.
0:08:48.039,0:08:51.100
And this was part into that.
0:08:51.580,0:09:00.610
And I know that him being painted and
sitting there, he felt very exposed, very naked.
0:09:00.693,0:09:04.090
It was a very strong, powerful experience for him.
0:09:05.820,0:09:10.960
And coming to think of it, you know, it was a ritual into manhood.
0:09:11.169,0:09:20.320
If you want, like a rite de passage, a passage-celebration
like a rebirth to some extent.
0:09:20.403,0:09:26.110
And now we're back to our topic of giving birth, of motherhood.
0:09:27.129,0:09:32.930
And of course, I gather that your mother
would have liked you to have children.
0:09:34.840,0:09:41.130
And it is clear that motherhood in general is mainly associated
0:09:41.770,0:09:47.500
with very positive ideas, even being glorified.
0:09:47.860,0:09:51.820
So tell me a little bit about ... give me an insight about your
0:09:53.590,0:09:57.639
disputes, maybe with your own mother,
about your decision not to have children.
0:09:59.809,0:10:06.139
I don't think we really had any disputes, because
that way she I really did have great parenting.
0:10:06.529,0:10:10.429
You know, so she is never forced it on me or anything.
0:10:10.513,0:10:15.529
It's just among ... in these discussions that we
randomly have that she's just dropped these things.
0:10:15.980,0:10:21.890
And I think she is more or less being okay with it, also
because she's seen how I am and what my priorities are.
0:10:21.890,0:10:28.669
And she is like: "Yeah, OK. I did feel bad for a while,
but I think I'm mostly grateful that you do not have kids."
0:10:29.659,0:10:30.559
I understand.
0:10:31.970,0:10:37.490
You know, we in Switzerland have a saint, a national saint:
0:10:39.740,0:10:48.740
Brother Nicholas is his name, and it's an
interesting story highly criticized by feminists.
0:10:50.059,0:10:57.200
And it's an interesting story because there is a
similar story with Buddha having left the family.
0:10:58.519,0:11:01.639
And this, I think Buddha had many children too.
0:11:01.970,0:11:04.800
And our national saint ... How many?
0:11:05.270,0:11:05.960
One.
0:11:05.960,0:11:06.460
He had only one child?
0:11:07.929,0:11:08.700
Yes, Rāhul.
0:11:10.200,0:11:12.730
This is telling you how much I know about Buddhism.
0:11:14.139,0:11:22.779
Our brother Nicholas had 10 children and the
youngest one was one and the oldest was 20.
0:11:23.289,0:11:31.389
And he left his family to go into solitude in
the forest, for one might say spiritual reasons.
0:11:31.870,0:11:36.250
And one of the things I learnt ...
0:11:39.330,0:11:42.190
which I'm happy to share with you.
0:11:46.490,0:11:50.809
Buddhist monks should be detached
from the duties of family life.
0:11:51.110,0:11:54.950
Only then can they focus
on reaching enlightenment.
0:11:55.460,0:11:57.860
So that's a similar parallel.
0:11:58.370,0:12:06.259
And I'm sharing this with you because as a
teacher, I often have had women in my seminars
0:12:06.559,0:12:15.240
in their 50s, younger also and older, and very
often they have for many decades suffered
0:12:15.580,0:12:23.279
either because of their choice not to have
children or because nature forced it upon them.
0:12:23.363,0:12:24.679
They couldn't have children.
0:12:25.159,0:12:30.500
And very often they've suffered mainly
from the pressure of society and of course,
0:12:30.583,0:12:35.659
their own expectations, even related to their
0:12:37.519,0:12:43.100
right to be in their existence as women
because in a way, they 'failed'
0:12:43.183,0:12:47.450
if one defines womanhood as bearing children.
0:12:48.280,0:12:53.700
When I share with them that the question is justified to ask
0:12:54.040,0:13:04.429
whether having children, motherhood,
could be a hindrance on the spiritual growth ...
0:13:04.820,0:13:09.910
And by the way, a question I faced by a becoming
teacher
0:13:10.490,0:13:20.059
who seriously contemplated that and ended up being a very
successful, holistic teacher and having children, just by the way.
0:13:20.143,0:13:26.990
But it's a serious question, and when I share
with these women that there are precedents
0:13:28.549,0:13:32.380
and there is this idea, it's amazingly liberating to these women,
0:13:32.500,0:13:42.360
because they see that maybe having no children
is also almost like a karmic opportunity for them
0:13:42.960,0:13:52.810
to unfold their spiritual side without that
attachment to the material side through children.
0:13:53.360,0:13:56.950
Does this resonate with you? I've had a bit of a monologue now.
0:13:59.629,0:14:01.730
It's an interesting perspective.
0:14:02.929,0:14:04.639
For me, it has been the opposite.
0:14:04.909,0:14:09.500
Wondering if not having children has
limited my spiritual growth in any way.
0:14:12.760,0:14:21.040
Of course, if you are looking at spiritual development only
as what in Sanskrit we call Sādhanā, the practice,
0:14:21.060,0:14:24.420
of course, if you have children,
you are not going to be able to do
0:14:24.640,0:14:28.519
15 hours of meditation a day and stuff like that, you know?
0:14:29.389,0:14:31.519
So yes, it's going to limit your spiritual growth.
0:14:31.603,0:14:37.250
While you may not even be able to do one hour of spiritual practice
every day, and that might limit your spiritual growth like that.
0:14:39.289,0:14:40.860
But I think ...
0:14:41.420,0:14:44.440
I think if you cannot progress spiritually as a mother,
0:14:44.500,0:14:51.230
then you cannot really progress spiritually as a
non-mother either, because it's the temperament.
0:14:51.679,0:14:57.219
For me, a spiritual person is somebody who is learning
from every single obstacle that life throws at you.
0:14:57.302,0:14:59.299
I mean, children are not the only obstacle in life.
0:14:59.383,0:15:00.950
You have a whole lot of other obstacles.
0:15:01.259,0:15:03.950
It's still not probably the most persistent obstacle in life.
0:15:04.220,0:15:08.410
As a single person, you have an obstacle and then you
relax and then you have an obstacle and then you relax.
0:15:08.462,0:15:14.680
As a parent, you probably just have obstacles.
You know, it depends on the children.
0:15:15.710,0:15:22.530
Well, I was just about to say, there are many viewers now
who cringe at you describing children as obstacles,
0:15:22.820,0:15:27.530
but dear viewers, were exactly spot on with that cringing.
0:15:28.290,0:15:36.169
That teacher actually, when she raised the question:
"Can children be a hindrance in spiritual growth?"
0:15:37.460,0:15:44.000
She asked the question amongst a bigger group
in a workshop kind of situation.
0:15:44.570,0:15:51.019
And most people, me included, reacted instantly:
"No, our children are our most important teachers".
0:15:51.980,0:15:54.879
So they're the very opposite of an obstacle.
0:15:54.963,0:15:58.700
They're actually the major catalyst for growth.
0:16:00.720,0:16:01.345
Yeah.
0:16:01.429,0:16:05.440
So I totally agree with you on that.
Obstacle, I meant more in terms of
0:16:05.870,0:16:12.539
the issues that push us to learn, but then
every obstacle is merely an opportunity.
0:16:12.769,0:16:20.690
You know, so if it's an obstacle ... if obstacles pull you down,
then you're not getting anywhere by having children,
0:16:21.170,0:16:23.519
but then you're not getting anywhere
without having children either,
0:16:23.603,0:16:25.289
because that approach will not take you anywhere.
0:16:25.620,0:16:32.220
Whereas if you are the sort of person that takes
every opportunity as what can I gain from this?
0:16:32.303,0:16:33.600
How can this make me richer?
0:16:33.683,0:16:42.080
How can this make me, you know, more wholesome
and more of maybe kind and a more big, you know,
0:16:42.163,0:16:49.039
then definitely it's a very potent tool for
growth or for self-development. Yes.
0:16:51.019,0:16:53.660
It's a very hot potato we are touching upon.
0:16:55.770,0:17:02.990
As I did my research in preparation,
the word 'taboo' was very often used.
0:17:03.740,0:17:06.289
And we'll get to that in a while.
0:17:06.980,0:17:08.740
Did you find ...
0:17:09.740,0:17:12.980
I asked about your mother because that's an obvious question.
0:17:13.063,0:17:22.009
But did you find socially that there is a lot of
pressure and expectation within your friends
0:17:22.093,0:17:26.029
of circles, within the people you work
with as a healer, as a teacher?
0:17:28.319,0:17:41.050
How do you feel and you're in India but I suspect that
the dynamics around the social pressure of motherhood
0:17:41.090,0:17:45.650
are not that different than in America or in Europe.
0:17:46.069,0:17:49.550
But tell me a little bit. How you feel about that?
0:17:50.420,0:17:56.060
I think luckily, India is a place which is so large
- we have a billion people plus -
0:17:56.420,0:17:59.529
that, you know, there's a group for everything.
0:17:59.613,0:18:04.769
There are groups of people that are pro kids and
there are groups of people that are not so interested.
0:18:04.853,0:18:05.440
So ...
0:18:07.130,0:18:12.960
because of being a healer and I think having
access to so many people, I did get to choose
0:18:13.043,0:18:15.519
a community, which is I do have friends with children.
0:18:15.940,0:18:19.539
I have friends who don't have children but really want children.
0:18:19.960,0:18:24.160
And then I have also friends who don't want children.
0:18:24.243,0:18:25.020
So ...
0:18:26.170,0:18:31.600
I think I have been fortunate to be in a community
where everybody is like, you know, to each his own.
0:18:31.673,0:18:33.990
I don't judge anyone, they don't judge me.
0:18:34.073,0:18:35.349
So it's quite OK.
0:18:35.890,0:18:38.960
But yes, if I was to integrate with the
normal society ...
0:18:39.720,0:18:45.549
See on one level, yes, I may be judged maybe
even by neighbours and other people.
0:18:46.000,0:18:51.460
But there's their judgment is a little bit less because I'm a
spiritual healer and in spirituality you don't have children.
0:18:51.970,0:18:59.529
But I'll tell you, on the other hand, I have been
told by several women as well that having a child
0:18:59.613,0:19:01.089
was the biggest mistake of their life.
0:19:01.660,0:19:08.490
I think as young as ... I think I was probably just
twenty six or twenty seven and I was working and ...
0:19:08.930,0:19:11.849
Healers, you know, we more empathetic people, connect with us.
0:19:11.933,0:19:12.970
She wasn't very close.
0:19:13.053,0:19:14.980
She wasn't a good friend or anything like that.
0:19:15.063,0:19:20.349
But in my ... you know, I had gone downstairs
for a walk and we were just walking together.
0:19:20.433,0:19:27.359
And she has these lovely daughters, okay? Among all
the kids in the apartment her children are my favourite.
0:19:27.443,0:19:29.900
Then she pulls me aside quietly one day, and she says:
0:19:29.940,0:19:33.980
"Ashwita, If you can help, but please do not have children.
It will ruin your life."
0:19:35.329,0:19:37.579
What!? ... You know ...
0:19:38.059,0:19:44.380
This is exactly one of the taboos I was referring to, and I'd like to introduce
0:19:45.890,0:19:54.170
an Israeli woman Orna Donath, she's a sociologist
and her work deals with voluntary childless and
0:19:54.630,0:19:58.279
- and this is not the same thing - life without children.
0:19:58.759,0:20:07.369
She has a Ph.D. at the Tel Aviv University on the topic
which you just brought up 'regretting motherhood'.
0:20:07.759,0:20:11.299
And I have a short video which I'd like to share with you.
0:20:16.569,0:20:23.170
We are being told that there is only one way that
any woman because she is a woman, should follow.
0:20:23.319,0:20:32.740
And that is motherhood, and our imagination is
being occupied by this only allegedly one road.
0:20:33.430,0:20:40.240
And we don't even want to talk about the
possibilities that women might regret it.
0:20:40.539,0:20:48.220
We don't want to talk about the possibilities that
women may not be mothers and will not regret it.
0:20:49.450,0:20:52.790
We just talk about this one road that is divided to two:
0:20:53.090,0:20:57.640
women who will not be mothers will surely regret.
Mothers, never regret.
0:20:57.940,0:21:07.420
And in this book, I'm trying to sketch a more
complex roadmap of flesh and blood lives of women.
0:21:07.503,0:21:08.230
We exist.
0:21:08.380,0:21:09.039
All of us.
0:21:10.329,0:21:13.019
This is a very, very interesting ...
0:21:19.309,0:21:22.860
Here. This is one of the things I learnt.
0:21:22.860,0:21:32.009
I got onto this webpage m-otherhood.com
where she is amongst six women.
0:21:32.093,0:21:40.670
It's an interesting movie, which I can recommend to
anyone who seriously wants to contemplate matters of life.
0:21:41.569,0:21:47.370
And this is a very central one. We all have
a mother and what she went through.
0:21:49.920,0:21:54.619
This website has the heading:
"Being a mother is only an option."
0:21:55.039,0:21:58.670
And I find that in itself a very powerful statement.
0:22:01.000,0:22:05.630
So would you like to talk a little bit about antinatalism?
0:22:08.859,0:22:15.009
Yes, I guess I was an antinatalist way before,
like years before I realized there is a term.
0:22:15.093,0:22:19.099
I think it was only one or two years ago, I was like:
"Oh, there's a term for people like me."
0:22:19.183,0:22:19.950
You know.
0:22:22.299,0:22:30.150
I think for me, it was more because of the spiritual
practice. I was already very in tune with the Earth.
0:22:30.233,0:22:37.250
I think about ... a decade ago, I wrote an article
actually that, you know, "Are you cancer?"
0:22:37.912,0:22:41.360
Really, the title should have been: "We are cancer."
0:22:41.840,0:22:46.150
In my eyes, I see human beings as being cancer on Earth.
0:22:46.233,0:22:46.980
What is cancer?
0:22:47.063,0:22:51.099
Cancer is a ... cancer is not a disease.
0:22:51.183,0:22:55.450
You know, it's just one healthy cell of the body decides that
0:22:55.450,0:23:02.859
it's life has greater priority than the life of every other cell on the living organism.
0:23:02.943,0:23:08.589
So it starts reproducing, it refuses to die no
matter what. You know, it just keeps increasing.
0:23:08.673,0:23:10.869
And I feel that that's what has happened to the Earth.
0:23:10.953,0:23:13.349
And I was like, I cannot contribute to this.
0:23:13.433,0:23:17.470
I just cannot add to the pain of Mother Earth.
0:23:17.553,0:23:20.019
And that's where it was really coming from.
0:23:20.103,0:23:21.350
It was coming from this ...
0:23:21.920,0:23:29.750
identifying as the Earth and working in favor of the
collective as the Earth; not collective as humanity.
0:23:29.833,0:23:35.790
You know? That's my perspective of it, of course.
Antinatalism. You can have so many perspectives,
0:23:35.850,0:23:40.240
but for me, it was really about being the Earth rather than being a human.
0:23:42.609,0:23:43.779
I hear you.
0:23:44.680,0:23:55.400
It reminds me when ... I was a young man, I had
a boss in the company of blue blood that descent.
0:23:55.450,0:24:00.480
His family goes back, I don't know, to the
13th century or something. A baron.
0:24:00.910,0:24:03.730
And he was kind enough ...
0:24:04.420,0:24:09.009
I'm a peasant, a working class boy,
but we worked in the same company.
0:24:10.270,0:24:14.760
He had a very generous heart. I'm still grateful to him.
0:24:15.070,0:24:22.390
He invited me once with my then girlfriend, now wife,
and we had a discussion in his home.
0:24:24.069,0:24:32.490
The four of us, his wife, he and us, and I argued,
I said: "This this world cannot afford more people."
0:24:33.030,0:24:36.910
Very much along the lines like you just described.
0:24:37.280,0:24:43.100
And he listened carefully, and for me, it was clear I will never have children.
0:24:45.529,0:24:49.090
And then he looked at me in earnest and he said:
0:24:49.140,0:24:55.400
"Well, have you ever thought that you might
be particularly privileged in the world?"
0:24:55.470,0:25:04.760
Even though, you know, a peasant in Switzerland compared to the
rest of humanity, is wealthy, is well educated, has a lot of privileges.
0:25:05.269,0:25:15.650
And from that standpoint, that Mother Earth is
suffering from the cell, which has developed into
0:25:15.733,0:25:22.220
a counterproductive growth on the Planet Earth,
environmental damage and so on.
0:25:24.670,0:25:27.099
If humanity wants to find the solution.
0:25:27.309,0:25:32.740
Yes, of course, antinatalism may be one of the answers
0:25:34.539,0:25:38.529
Or one of the contributions, rather, to be more precise.
0:25:39.190,0:25:41.710
But he turned the table on me and he said:
0:25:41.710,0:25:50.630
"As a privileged man, could it be that you actually have a
responsibility to contribute to the solution by having children
0:25:50.770,0:25:58.150
who again will be privileged and if you educate them
that they serve humanity to solve the issues we have?
0:25:59.019,0:26:02.140
Wouldn't that be an argument in favour of having children?"
0:26:02.529,0:26:08.700
And this, to me, was a key turning point where I revised my opinion and ...
0:26:09.550,0:26:13.240
I almost said 'succumbed' to parenthood, becoming a father.
0:26:13.490,0:26:18.069
It wasn't quite that, but it was a deciding moment for me.
0:26:18.519,0:26:20.589
Can you follow his thinking?
0:26:21.529,0:26:24.890
No, I agree with him completely, but then I would say, adopt!
0:26:24.980,0:26:33.019
There are so many underprivileged children who could
do with more care who can really add value to the world.
0:26:33.559,0:26:39.340
So instead of bringing another child into
a world where there are so many people
0:26:39.420,0:26:45.300
who are underprivileged and therefore will potentially
add more of a mess to the planet, you know,
0:26:45.400,0:26:51.180
through violence and criminal activities because
they have not had the right environment growing up,
0:26:51.790,0:27:02.040
I would rather invest all of that energy and effort
into adopting a child and offering it like that.
0:27:02.720,0:27:06.369
For me personally, like I said, I've not had much of a desire.
0:27:06.453,0:27:14.089
Plus I would rather invest all of that energy in nurturing
and parenting a thousand adults rather than one child.
0:27:14.173,0:27:16.190
So for me, that was a different choice.
0:27:16.273,0:27:20.599
But I think if people really want to be responsible towards the Earth,
0:27:20.779,0:27:26.029
adoption is something I very highly, you know, respect.
0:27:27.589,0:27:28.215
Yes.
0:27:30.890,0:27:34.100
In fact, I grew up as an adopted child.
0:27:34.200,0:27:34.960
So ...
0:27:37.320,0:27:38.710
I'm with you on that.
0:27:38.923,0:27:44.750
And yet I heard him - I think I've used the same argument back then -
0:27:45.049,0:27:58.540
and I hear him that this isn't entirely the same as
perpetuating a chain of privileges in the positive sense,
0:27:58.820,0:28:05.660
not in the greedy sense, not in the suppressing sense
and exploitation sense of other people.
0:28:07.760,0:28:14.299
You know, privileges are fine to have.
But the flipside of that is duty. Duty to serve humanity.
0:28:15.470,0:28:23.829
But I'm happy to accept it as it is, and I fully applaud your opinion.
0:28:24.619,0:28:27.289
My mother has had the same kind of discussion.
0:28:27.373,0:28:28.759
She did not want children either.
0:28:30.170,0:28:32.750
And she had a convincing argument as well.
0:28:33.380,0:28:35.089
So she did not want children.
0:28:38.119,0:28:43.700
So, once they were part of this meditation community and my dad took her
0:28:44.410,0:28:48.740
when some sage had come along and they were having a conversation.
0:28:48.823,0:28:50.779
My father just mentioned: "Oh, she doesn't want children."
0:28:50.863,0:28:52.119
And he said: "Why don't you want children?"
0:28:52.203,0:28:57.950
She said: "What a horrible word. Why would
we bring another person into this mess?"
0:28:58.650,0:28:59.560
He told her:
0:28:59.690,0:29:06.750
"Well, being a human being is the only way you can give a soul
an opportunity to attain Moksha, basically to get liberated".
0:29:06.860,0:29:10.289
So if for nothing else, do it for that.
0:29:10.373,0:29:13.160
So for her, that was the convincing argument.
0:29:13.243,0:29:14.450
And of course, I applaud this.
0:29:14.533,0:29:15.349
I do agree with her.
0:29:15.433,0:29:19.880
But I mean, I think now it's reached a point
where I don't see much point anymore.
0:29:20.180,0:29:20.805
Yes.
0:29:20.889,0:29:22.750
And this is very valid.
0:29:22.833,0:29:25.840
And I think that's a very strong point you made there, Ashwita.
0:29:29.060,0:29:33.680
Because I think also, you know ... For me,
this is the only reason one should have ...
0:29:33.680,0:29:34.849
I'm not saying it is the only reason.
0:29:34.933,0:29:38.630
But for me, it's the only reason that one should be having a child.
0:29:38.713,0:29:44.450
That is what makes me feel even more disappointed
because a lot of people who want children so badly
0:29:44.730,0:29:46.440
actually do nothing in that regard.
0:29:46.523,0:29:51.620
According to me, if somebody is going to have a
child, it needs about a year of preparation.
0:29:51.720,0:29:59.660
Mentally, on the physical level and then, you know,
having a strong spiritual practice during the pregnancy
0:30:00.090,0:30:04.339
and then having the children, hopefully in the most natural way possible.
0:30:04.423,0:30:09.410
But that's, you know, depending on personal
belief and then raising them accordingly.
0:30:09.760,0:30:15.720
And getting educated, you know, reading up on
parenthood and learning how to be a good parents,
0:30:15.910,0:30:20.590
because our generation has had zero exposure,
like when my mom had children,
0:30:20.630,0:30:25.130
she already had experience raising children, her siblings and others cousins.
0:30:26.029,0:30:33.579
Most people that want children today have never
spent like a week with a child, day in and day out.
0:30:33.662,0:30:39.259
They don't know what it's like, what you know,
what problems child raising can bring.
0:30:39.710,0:30:42.170
They have absolutely no idea what they're getting into.
0:30:42.710,0:30:45.500
And that's not fair on a new life.
0:30:47.620,0:30:48.650
This is so right.
0:30:48.733,0:30:53.380
And I think most parents have had this experience that they're saying:
0:30:53.460,0:30:59.750
"Well, I need to have a license to drive a car.
If I had known what it means to have a child,
0:30:59.750,0:31:04.430
I wish I would have had a broader knowledge, broader information."
0:31:04.829,0:31:09.430
And that's partly also how humanity has unfolded.
0:31:09.513,0:31:15.680
And obviously in India, that's today not much else
than anywhere else in the world by what you just said.
0:31:17.540,0:31:25.730
And we mustn't forget that we are at the junction
now where all the big minds are saying:
0:31:25.813,0:31:29.869
"It's not a minute to 12. It's actually past 12."
0:31:30.920,0:31:33.740
The question is, do we survive this?
0:31:33.980,0:31:44.900
So, new ideas, new thoughts beyond the realm of tradition and
mindset, which we've carried on so far are in need to be explored.
0:31:45.170,0:31:47.180
So I'm with you.
0:31:47.450,0:31:50.420
Should we quickly look at the end of this video?
0:31:50.503,0:31:53.660
Because maybe ... let's have a look.
0:31:54.589,0:32:06.330
I know that there might be feminists who
will see my study as dangerous because ...
0:32:07.670,0:32:12.810
I'm not here, I'm not sitting here in a kind of a propaganda
0:32:13.350,0:32:21.200
against motherhood, against mothers, against children or against childbirth.
0:32:21.529,0:32:30.610
I'm sitting here in the name of calling for more
and more women to be able to be the owner
0:32:30.850,0:32:38.029
of our lives, our bodies, our thoughts, our emotions,
our decision, our fantasies, our dreams.
0:32:38.930,0:32:45.710
So I will not ... I cannot, I must not sit here and tell other women what to do.
0:32:52.670,0:32:54.710
I think that's in your spirit, isn't it?
0:32:55.640,0:32:57.140
Yes, very, very much.
0:32:57.680,0:33:00.690
I would tell women what to do, though.
0:33:01.860,0:33:03.319
A little bit different there, but ...
0:33:05.720,0:33:13.039
in the sense that in my observation, in my experience
as a healer, what I have come to learn
0:33:13.609,0:33:19.630
is that I classify women as natural mothers
and not natural mothers, you know.
0:33:19.690,0:33:23.180
So, there are women that have told me:
"You're wrong, you know, it's not like this.
0:33:23.263,0:33:24.829
Not everybody regrets having a child."
0:33:24.913,0:33:28.250
Yes, of course, not everybody regrets doing anything.
0:33:30.049,0:33:34.960
But from my observation, I have seen
that there are so many natural mothers,
0:33:35.010,0:33:39.730
and for them, childbirth is easy, raising the child is easy.
0:33:39.813,0:33:46.809
So anyone who is struggling to have a baby, doing a little
bit more therapy is probably going to help, you know?
0:33:47.269,0:33:53.709
But are these natural mothers for whom it just
comes easy, and raising children is so easy.
0:33:53.792,0:33:56.880
The whole process is easy. They don't feel traumatized by their children.
0:33:57.680,0:34:02.540
And then there's the other category, and it has
nothing to do with wanting to be a mother or not,
0:34:02.590,0:34:06.500
because I've seen some people who very
desperately want to be mothers and then they have
0:34:06.583,0:34:11.599
a child, and that's when the postpartal depression comes
in because they like: "This is not what I expected it to be."
0:34:12.110,0:34:16.770
You know, so then it is utter hell, and it's not a small price to pay
0:34:16.770,0:34:21.590
because it's probably a good two decades of hell for them, you know.
0:34:22.130,0:34:25.220
And the saddest part, like she rightly said, the saddest part is
0:34:25.360,0:34:29.960
it is so shameful to regret having a child that nobody will say it out loud.
0:34:30.110,0:34:31.760
So we're just propagating this myth.
0:34:31.843,0:34:35.610
You know that there is no such thing as regret, but it exists, you know.
0:34:36.210,0:34:38.539
As therapists we get a lot of that.
0:34:39.710,0:34:42.130
Well, I agree with you.
0:34:42.213,0:34:44.760
I think we picked up a hot potato.
0:34:44.843,0:34:48.860
I think this deserved much more time than we are giving it now.
0:34:49.309,0:34:53.900
But we are coming to an end of this issue of RTalk.
0:34:54.300,0:34:57.469
Ashwita, how was it for you so far?
0:34:57.553,0:34:59.780
And then I say goodbye to you.
0:35:01.019,0:35:08.250
It was interesting, it is a topic I'm so afraid of being
public about, so thank you for making it so beautiful.
0:35:09.210,0:35:10.110
Oh, thank you.
0:35:10.193,0:35:11.400
That's very kind of you.
0:35:11.809,0:35:16.720
Ashwita, thank you very much.
And I say, good bye to you.
0:35:16.720,0:35:18.190
Dear viewers.
0:35:18.273,0:35:18.899
Bye-bye.
0:35:19.829,0:35:23.849
Dear viewers, I hope you will join me again next time round.
0:35:24.269,0:35:25.560
See you in three weeks time.
0:35:29.400,0:35:32.340
English subtitles: René Vögtli
