RTalk 'Shame and Blame' - Nathalie Jaspar

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Welcome to RTalk,
the place where we agree to disagree.

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The topic today: Shame and Blame.

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My guest is from New York, Nathalie Jaspar.

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Welcome, Nathalie.

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Hi, thank you for having me, René.

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I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

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I'm really keen to get to know you.

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I will introduce you in a moment.

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Actually, let me do this right now.

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And tell my audience that:
I don't know, Nathalie at all,

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other than having spotted her for a while,

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being the host of her own talk show,
the podcast 'Dive into Reiki'.

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So I was very curious and I'm really excited to

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and look forward to getting to know her today.

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Thank you.

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Nathalie Jaspar is a Reiki master who has studied from various
sources

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and went to Japan to practice Zen Buddhism.

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She is known for her illustrations,
an author of two Reiki books.

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And, as I said, the host of 'Dive into Reiki.'

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During our short preliminary conversation,

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I was intrigued that
she is also in advertising

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and the pharma industry.

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It was in this context that our topic,
shame on blame, emerged.

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But first, Nathalie,
I see from your biography

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that you gave Reiki presentations
to the New York Jets,

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also, at Fashion Week.

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So to tough American football players and elegant supermodels, I guess.

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Tell us more first about that
before we dive into our topic.

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Of course.

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Well, they're all handsome,
players and models. Just kidding.

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(Laughter.)

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When I was starting as a practitioner, a professional practitioner,

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I tried the usual things.

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The mailers. It didn't work.

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And then - talking about the topic of today -

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I let go of all shame and I
started emailing people everywhere.

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People who send, for example, massage- and
Reiki people to homes, and spas. Everywhere.

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And I got invited - from 200
invitations I sent or emailed -

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I actually got invited to go to the Jets.

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And that was amazing.

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So I offered Reiki to trainers.

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And they fell asleep.

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So they didn't go for the
Reiki because they were scared

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that they will all fall asleep,
instead of being these very strong players.

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But I loved it because they were so alpha,

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they came so angry and so pepped up

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and then after two minutes,
they were snoring on the table.

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And then the next one came, it's like,
"I'm not going to fall asleep!"

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And they will fall asleep on the table.

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So all of them fell asleep,
which I didn't know it would be like,

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you know, for soccer or football players.

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And then Fashion Week, it was incredible

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because we think of these people perhaps as just being into looks.

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But you can see they were desperate.

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As soon as two or three people liked it,

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I had a line that went
around like the whole hall

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because they do these things
in hotels for Fashion Week.

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And everybody was asking for
the massage that doesn't touch you.

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Like the massage that is not a massage.

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And what I found in both of them, and you

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can talk about very extreme people,

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like extremely different people, is they all

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need to rest, they all need to relax, and they all appreciate Reiki.

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So I think sometimes
we're limited in where we go.

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And when we keep the language
a little bit more neutral,

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and when we keep it real about relaxation,
we can go anywhere.

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I so agree with you.

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And I'm glad you mentioned that.

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And I'm glad I asked about it.

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And indeed, I know that one
of the national ... not captain ...

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the coach of the German national team,

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he was actually a Reiki practitioner also.

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And sometimes, yes, you're quite right,

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we the Reiki community are welcome

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to look outside our comfort zone and our box.

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Talking about it: sometimes I find that we focus too
much on the people who

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are underprivileged. You know,
the poor, the sick, and so on.

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And of course, they deserve attention,

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and first attention, of course.

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But at the same time, we must be careful

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that we don't overlook that
the wealthy and the rich,

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and the aristocracy,
they equally have a right

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to join Reiki classes.

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Only the venues would probably be a different one if I had to give it to ...

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A student of ours is doing very well in Zurich actually,
catering to the business community.

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Obviously, his format and his venue is a very different one than

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when I teach in the old age home, for example, here in my local city.

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Yes, I agree with you.

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And it's interesting,
you used the word 'shame'.

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And I think, if I understood you correctly,

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you meant to say,
or you associated shame with

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inhibitions, with reluctance, feeling small
talking to these important people.

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Is that the way you
defined shame when you spoke?

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I think there are different levels of shame.

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I think at the end, the root of it is feeling
not enough or something is wrong with you.

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So obviously, the shame I felt by

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'should I email these people and bother them?'

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is very small compared to shame that maybe is causing bigger issues.

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But you can see already that
the whole phenomenon of shame

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is stopping you from doing.

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You know, who am I to email 300 people?

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They're going to think I'm cuckoo.

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Especially because sometimes people ... I don't know if you have seen very American series,

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but Reiki has become kind of a joke.

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Like, oh my god,
don't tell me you're a Reiki trainer!

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Or they all make fun of a Reiki person.

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So like, and you always have this thing ...

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I come from a family who's not spiritual,
who is not into these things.

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And they told me this is witchcraft, right?

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My mom is from Spain,
and she calls it 'brujería'.

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So for me, I always have been
trying to be very formal, working corporate America.

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For me, yeah, going out of that comfort zone as you call it,

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was ... I had to face some shame, like emailing.

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And I became shameless in emailing.
And I love it.

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Yeah, I agree with you.

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And of course, shame has many faces.

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One of the dark faces ... I'm jumping in already a little bit

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although, maybe we still need to talk a little bit about those definitions.

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But, you know, amongst men, hopefully less so ...

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Having said that, no, my son is in the hip hop,

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in the rap scene, and 'dissing' each other
is part of their culture, actually.

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I was about to say, hopefully today, young men

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don't shame and blame each other the way
we used to in my generation when we were young.

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Actually, all the way through, even to high politics,

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you see the practice of shaming and blaming

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as a strategic method and mechanism of Machiavellian character, divide and conquer.

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That kind of thing.

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So very, very authoritarian ... no, it's not the word ...

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very machoesque, very patriarchical, this whole thing.

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When I looked at definitions,

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I found something by a sociologist
from the University College of London.

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He wrote a paper about
'Insider or versus Outsider'.

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These are two catch words, which you actually also
brought up in the 30 minutes with spoke recently.

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And he says, "Shame and Blame" - the duo, so to speak -

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"weaponizes stigmata" - and again,
stigma is a word you also used -

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"weaponizes stigmata as a calculated strategy ...

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and addresses how the shame associated with certain
stigma has taken on the additional dimension of blame."

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Even of being kept responsible, you know, that's when the victim is being turned

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to become the offender. And that kind of thing.

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So would you like to say something about this definition of shame and blame?

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I think, yeah, this is when we go, again,

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the shame I talk was that very low shame.

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This is when shame
becomes ingrained in society.

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And when I read that,
yes, there is a patriarchy,

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but also I'm thinking of women.

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I've been with women,
especially older generation,

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a little older than me.

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And when we watch scenes
of rape or anything,

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they actually see she
didn't defend herself.

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My aunt who passed,
she was much older,

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she believed that women will be raped
because they were short skirts.

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So, I think that's when we're
talking about blame and shame.

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The victims and the people
were so ashamed.

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Women are actually blaming other women
about being assaulted.

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It's incredible
because you can question

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with a person who said like ...
Because we're watching TV

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and the girl kicked the
guy out and she wasn't raped.

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She says, you see women are only raped

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because they don't know
how to defend themselves.

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And I was like ...
And I questioned because I also learned

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you cannot really go from telling shame

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because he's so ingrained in the psyche

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that the only way is to question is like,

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well, why ... why are you blaming
the victim if she's been raped?

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Like some people actually cannot defend.

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I freeze.

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I'm that kind of person
I will completely freeze.

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Some women are blind,
some women cannot hear.

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Some women just may faint.
Some of them have a gun.

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So I think questioning that, for me,
has worked a little bit better than facing it up front.

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Understanding that people who are in the cycle of
shame and blame, they're not being mean.

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They're just actually ... it's the
shame that moves them, right?

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They don't want to be wrong.

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They want to be part
of the group who's safe

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and they're blaming the others.

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So for me, compassion is
the way to really approach it.

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Compassion to myself when I understand
I have shame and blame inside myself

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because I grew up ... I don't know if you can be human

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and not have a certain level
of shame and blame, right?

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And it can be regarding ecology.

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And I think we're actually entering ...
I'm less hopeful than you are.

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I see we're actually entering
a cycle of very dark shame and blame.

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I think politics, as you mentioned, is using it.

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And at all levels,
race, gender, everything.

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I think it's being used.

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And there is a worse shame and
blame that is actually affecting

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even the lives of people.

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Like in the work I do
and we mention about that,

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I work to alleviate the
stigma and blame of having HIV.

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And I think, yeah ...

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(René interrupts.)

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Let's just get there, maybe in a moment.

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You said a lot of very
interesting and important things.

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Yeah.

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And I so find it important what you said about your grandmother, I believe,

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that of course, she comes from a mindset and with belief systems.

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And that's actually the
cause of her worldview,

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her approach about womanhood.

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And of course, how she experienced it,

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where a lot of this is stemming from.

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So if we had to look at
the causal level of that,

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I think you touched on
a very important point.

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And then of course,
it's also a power place.

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And so on.

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Let me, if you ...
let me have on a lighter note almost,

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still introducing the ideas of shame and blame
and what we're talking about.

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Because there is a very interesting woman
who is famous on in the TED talks.

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Her name is Brené Brown.

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And she speaks very
openly about vulnerability.

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She speaks openly about
shame and that kind of thing.

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I found something interesting. I'll show you.

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Blamers ... How many of you,
when something goes wrong,

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the first thing you want
to know is whose fault it is?

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Hi, my name is Brené.
I am a Blamer.

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I'll tell you this quick story.

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This is a couple of years ago,

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when I first realized the
magnitude to which I blame.

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I'm in my house, I have on
white slacks and a pink sweater set.

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And I'm drinking a cup
of coffee in my kitchen.

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It's a full cup of coffee.

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I drop it on the tile floor.

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It goes into a million pieces,
flashes up all over me.

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And the first ... I mean,
a millisecond after it hit the floor,

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right out of my mouth is this:

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DAM YOU STEVE.

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(Laughter)

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Who is my husband.

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Because let me tell you
how fast this works for me.

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Steve plays Water Polo
with a group of friends.

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And the night before he
went to go play Water Polo,

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I said, hey, make sure you come back at 10,

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because I can never fall
until you're home.

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And he got back at 10.30.

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And so I went to bed a
little bit later than I thought.

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Ergo, my second cup of coffee
that I probably would not be having

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had he come home when we discussed.

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Therefore ...

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(Laughter)

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And so the rest of the story is,
I'm cleaning up the kitchen.

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Steve calls, caller ID, and he's like,
hey, what's going on, babe?

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(Brené huffs)

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What's going on?

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(Laughter)

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So I'll tell you exactly what's going on.

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(Chuckling)

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I'm cleaning up the coffee
that spilled all ... Dial tone.

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(Laughter)

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Because he knows.

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This is ... It was important to me to show

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before we start about bigger context.

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Yes, yes. So True!

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In daily life, right?

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We do it with ourselves
and with our spouses all the time.

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But I think it also
makes one accountable.

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Like it's easier to blame
someone else than yourself.

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But also, like sometimes life is so random

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that we prefer to blame.

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There is almost like a reason
versus it's just a random accident.

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Like we're not comfortable
in a place of uncertainty.

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So we try to blame or find a reason,

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so that we don't have to live
in a world that is chaotic.

0:14:44.560,0:14:46.560
And we have to just deal with it.

0:14:46.560,0:14:47.840
You know, it is somewhat hilarious.

0:14:47.840,0:14:50.530
I am a little bit like that, sorry.

0:14:51.320,0:14:56.120
Yeah, I'm trying to achieve
this also with my RTalks

0:14:56.120,0:14:59.530
that people can catch themselves and say,
yeah, me too.

0:15:00.050,0:15:04.960
And it's ... I find that it's very
often in these small daily things

0:15:04.960,0:15:07.760
in the interactions with
my wife or with my son.

0:15:07.760,0:15:10.360
So like she just showed beautifully,

0:15:10.360,0:15:14.960
where I can discover a
deeper rooted mechanism.

0:15:15.690,0:15:19.040
These are ideal playgrounds to start correcting

0:15:19.040,0:15:22.110
and trying and experimenting
new ways of behavior.

0:15:22.400,0:15:26.760
And step by step, I can carry
it out and do it on a greater level

0:15:26.760,0:15:31.410
and finally end up
talking to you about it.

0:15:31.600,0:15:37.200
So we got to talk about
your other activities.

0:15:38.000,0:15:42.040
How dare you, as a Reiki teacher,
work for the enemy? Really?

0:15:42.520,0:15:45.960
How can you possibly, I mean, chemicals

0:15:45.960,0:15:49.320
and particularly the
pharmaceutical enemies?

0:15:49.320,0:15:52.000
It's for many in our community, the devil.

0:15:53.820,0:15:57.170
You know, you should
feel ashamed of yourself.

0:15:57.720,0:16:01.520
And I actually was for many years,
so that you know, for many years.

0:16:01.520,0:16:04.440
No, no, I was, I had two personas.

0:16:04.440,0:16:06.920
I had the Nathalie in the
Reiki community that would go

0:16:06.920,0:16:10.640
to Yoga wear Yoga pants and
was like all peace and love.

0:16:10.640,0:16:13.760
And then I would have the
advertising Nathalie that was all business.

0:16:13.760,0:16:18.440
And then I took a sabbatical and
I realized I actually like work in advertising.

0:16:18.840,0:16:22.280
And the other thing is that work in
advertising really grew my Reiki practice

0:16:22.280,0:16:24.800
because when you talk
about anger and worry,

0:16:24.800,0:16:28.280
I had ... As you said, my
battleground was in advertising world.

0:16:28.280,0:16:32.080
I grew as a person because there
is a lot of stress and all of that.

0:16:32.080,0:16:34.960
And now in advertising,
I used to do beauty

0:16:34.960,0:16:37.530
because I do love beautiful things.

0:16:37.760,0:16:41.080
But it's now mostly with HIV,
like fighting the stigma

0:16:41.080,0:16:43.880
and helping those people get
the verification they need.

0:16:43.880,0:16:46.590
So it feels actually quite well.

0:16:46.960,0:16:49.120
But I think there is no shame now.

0:16:49.120,0:16:51.450
Openly people know I practice Reiki.

0:16:51.490,0:16:55.890
In the Reiki community I actually use my
advertising examples all the time,

0:16:56.700,0:17:00.240
about, hey, I was the other day,
with three crazy bosses in a room.

0:17:00.240,0:17:03.120
I did Jōshin kokyū hō
and everybody smiled.

0:17:03.120,0:17:05.800
And if you're talking about
the example with Brené Brown,

0:17:05.800,0:17:09.530
I have like 10 of those every day
because I do have an ego.

0:17:10.000,0:17:13.760
Someone stole my idea. This is it? The
paranoia in me and having to sit with it

0:17:13.760,0:17:16.400
because I cannot react like
a crazy lady like Brené Brown

0:17:16.400,0:17:18.990
with the husband because
they're not my husband.

0:17:19.640,0:17:21.440
I think it is a great training ground.

0:17:21.440,0:17:24.120
I think sometimes we see Reiki
as like either you are a Reiki

0:17:24.120,0:17:27.560
professional practitioner or
you're not if you do other things.

0:17:27.560,0:17:29.520
And this goes back
where we started, right?

0:17:29.520,0:17:32.040
Like everybody deserves to
have the effects of Reiki.

0:17:32.040,0:17:35.440
Like in my head,
like we should Reiki every politician.

0:17:35.440,0:17:38.680
Like people actually who are
not into the spiritual community

0:17:38.680,0:17:41.880
need more presence of
people who are practicing.

0:17:41.880,0:17:45.880
Right, we bring a certain Zen,
we bring a certain calm to people.

0:17:45.880,0:17:48.360
Everybody is like in the office
like, you have positive vibes.

0:17:48.360,0:17:49.520
I love talking to you.

0:17:49.520,0:17:51.960
Yes, we become a little
bit like the shoulder.

0:17:52.600,0:17:56.080
But bringing common sense,
bringing calm into these environments

0:17:56.080,0:17:57.800
which are so chaotic.

0:17:57.800,0:18:00.880
And if we did that, all of us,
instead of worrying so much about

0:18:00.880,0:18:02.800
am I making money or living out of Reiki,

0:18:02.800,0:18:05.560
just living our practice where we are.

0:18:05.560,0:18:09.280
And also not negating, we may not
be testing to be Reiki practitioners.

0:18:09.280,0:18:10.960
And that is OK.

0:18:10.960,0:18:12.920
I think that will help
the world a lot, right?

0:18:12.920,0:18:16.720
We have, like you will go
into politics, into banking.

0:18:16.720,0:18:20.090
There is a lady who does
outreach to police officers, right?

0:18:20.320,0:18:23.320
Instead of judging them,
she just offers Reiki to them.

0:18:23.320,0:18:26.280
So I think if we are more into the world,

0:18:26.280,0:18:27.960
only good can come of it.

0:18:27.960,0:18:28.960
I agree with you.

0:18:28.960,0:18:31.880
And I would not limit that to Reiki only.

0:18:31.880,0:18:38.350
I mean, my audience also, is a
spiritually generally interested audience.

0:18:40.070,0:18:41.840
You and I are both Reiki teachers.

0:18:41.840,0:18:43.880
So it's natural we speak about Reiki.

0:18:43.880,0:18:46.600
But the same thing is true
for meditation, for yoga,

0:18:46.600,0:18:49.420
for any spiritual practice, really.

0:18:50.040,0:18:51.900
Just to add that.

0:18:55.870,0:19:00.170
I of course was provocative with
tongue-in-cheek when I raised my question.

0:19:00.920,0:19:04.680
And I liked raising that
question because blame and shame

0:19:04.680,0:19:09.600
often, as you beautifully put it,
includes preconceived opinions,

0:19:09.600,0:19:13.780
judgments about certain other people.

0:19:16.450,0:19:21.560
I wouldn't be alive if the
pharmaceutical industry hadn't

0:19:21.560,0:19:26.160
invented anti-malaria medicine.
I wouldn't be alive.

0:19:26.160,0:19:29.440
And most of the viewers,
if they're honest with themselves,

0:19:29.440,0:19:31.680
most of them wouldn't
be alive if it wasn't

0:19:31.680,0:19:35.880
for the achievements of medical,
of modern medical achievements,

0:19:35.880,0:19:38.280
including the pharmaceutical industry.

0:19:38.280,0:19:45.320
So we shouldn't blame and
shame them in our community

0:19:45.320,0:19:50.720
and be in complete contradiction
to what we preach when we teach Reiki.

0:19:50.720,0:19:55.000
But tell me about your experiences,
because that's

0:19:55.000,0:19:59.160
the context where the word stigma came.

0:19:59.160,0:20:01.920
And you already ... I interrupted
you and brought up your work

0:20:01.920,0:20:05.590
with people with HIV, with AIDS.

0:20:06.240,0:20:07.680
So yeah, we ...

0:20:07.680,0:20:09.880
So obviously, when it comes to pharma,

0:20:09.880,0:20:11.720
these people need medication, right?

0:20:11.720,0:20:14.550
So it's really what we're trying to do is more

0:20:15.170,0:20:18.000
enabling them to have less shame and blame

0:20:18.000,0:20:19.600
so they can actually access medication.

0:20:19.600,0:20:21.160
The other day I was watching a research

0:20:21.160,0:20:24.120
and this woman was talking
about her best friend who

0:20:24.120,0:20:26.360
was so ashamed and blamed herself so much

0:20:26.360,0:20:28.320
about having contracted HIV,

0:20:28.320,0:20:30.720
that she actually preferred
to die and not get treatment.

0:20:30.720,0:20:33.990
And she told everybody she
had cancer and it could not go away.

0:20:34.160,0:20:37.350
So part of our job,
more than even selling medication

0:20:37.350,0:20:41.290
- this company is actually hoping
not to have HIV by 2050 -

0:20:41.440,0:20:44.180
is to take away the stigma of having it,

0:20:44.180,0:20:46.600
contracting it, again blaming the person who

0:20:46.600,0:20:49.880
contracted it, having stereotypes
of why they contracted it.

0:20:49.880,0:20:52.680
A lot of people are actually married women,

0:20:52.680,0:20:55.720
people who are having
intercourse for the first time.

0:20:55.720,0:20:57.280
So taking away that stigma

0:20:57.280,0:20:59.800
so these people can actually first

0:20:59.800,0:21:03.360
exist and lift their depression,
but mostly get into treatment

0:21:03.360,0:21:06.040
and have now a life expectancy as ours.

0:21:06.040,0:21:07.560
I'm telling you when I heard that story

0:21:07.560,0:21:10.160
about the woman who died
because she was so ashamed,

0:21:10.160,0:21:11.930
my heart just shriveled.

0:21:12.470,0:21:14.560
So, we're doing a lot of videos,

0:21:14.560,0:21:16.440
again taking away preconceptions,

0:21:16.440,0:21:19.480
preconception that if
you got HIV, you were

0:21:19.480,0:21:22.040
like having relentless sex with everybody

0:21:22.040,0:21:23.600
and that's not always true.

0:21:23.600,0:21:25.040
And if it's true, that's their issue.

0:21:25.040,0:21:26.980
They have the right to do it, right?

0:21:27.360,0:21:29.600
Especially I work a lot
with the Latino community

0:21:29.600,0:21:31.600
where there is even more stigma.

0:21:31.600,0:21:33.440
They don't talk about it.

0:21:33.440,0:21:35.160
Families get destroyed because of it.

0:21:35.160,0:21:37.520
So we're trying to just lower that

0:21:37.540,0:21:39.240
and see these people are beautiful.

0:21:39.240,0:21:43.080
And for me, break my heart,
when I work with them, like to hug them

0:21:43.230,0:21:46.750
and they're just grateful by the fact
that you hug them, right?

0:21:46.960,0:21:49.200
And also, I am very honest,
when I do these interviews,

0:21:49.200,0:21:52.120
I'm like, how would I
feel if I contracted HIV?

0:21:52.120,0:21:54.000
I'm like, I admire them.

0:21:54.000,0:21:55.240
I don't know if I could cope with it.

0:21:55.240,0:21:57.360
Like I totally understand that feeling

0:21:57.360,0:22:01.440
because we have so many
preconceived ideas of that sickness.

0:22:01.440,0:22:02.920
It is not chronic condition.

0:22:02.920,0:22:04.240
You don't die of it anymore.

0:22:04.240,0:22:05.800
It's very easy to treat.

0:22:05.800,0:22:08.200
That we still have that I would like, wow,

0:22:08.200,0:22:09.660
I'm like, I will have shame and blame.

0:22:09.740,0:22:11.840
So I cannot also judge
them for being ashamed.

0:22:11.840,0:22:15.170
We just need to support
each other and educate people.

0:22:15.360,0:22:18.080
And that for me, really, again,
we're talking about spirituality.

0:22:18.080,0:22:20.720
That for me is spirituality in action.
You know?

0:22:21.640,0:22:23.290
Yes, I do.

0:22:23.850,0:22:25.880
Actually, I was intrigued when you mentioned

0:22:25.880,0:22:30.560
that in our preliminary conversation
because as a young Reiki person,

0:22:30.560,0:22:33.910
I wasn't even a Reiki teacher yet,

0:22:34.360,0:22:36.430
but I knew I wanted to become one,

0:22:36.960,0:22:40.960
I lived in Hong Kong
and we were writing 1990.

0:22:40.960,0:22:43.040
So these were the very early days.

0:22:43.040,0:22:47.470
And the Chinese had certain ideas.

0:22:47.720,0:22:51.960
For example, a lot of Chinese people,

0:22:51.960,0:22:54.760
common people who said homosexuality

0:22:54.760,0:22:57.200
is a disease which only Westerners have.

0:22:57.240,0:22:59.040
We Chinese don't have it.

0:22:59.600,0:23:02.300
Therefore, AIDS is only a Western disease.

0:23:02.760,0:23:06.040
So it was completely a
big taboo and stigmatized.

0:23:06.040,0:23:11.000
And I was keen to practice Reiki.

0:23:11.000,0:23:16.230
So I went actually to
a AIDS self-help group.

0:23:16.530,0:23:21.810
It was led by a wonderful,
wonderful Irish Catholic nun.

0:23:21.920,0:23:23.220
Oh, she was great!

0:23:23.440,0:23:25.580
She was so wonderful.

0:23:27.040,0:23:31.020
But ... I'm transgressing. I'm sorry.

0:23:31.120,0:23:33.040
My memory takes me away because I

0:23:33.040,0:23:37.830
wanted to recount another
incident of stigmatization

0:23:38.130,0:23:41.980
the other way around when
I came back to Switzerland.

0:23:43.160,0:23:48.360
I was very enthusiastic
being a Reiki teacher now.

0:23:48.710,0:23:51.720
My wife and I wanted to
teach Reiki in Switzerland.

0:23:51.720,0:23:53.840
So we offered our services. Like you

0:23:53.840,0:23:59.090
we went to the football players
or to Fashion Week and so on.

0:23:59.280,0:24:03.240
And with the experiences
I had with the AIDS Concern,

0:24:03.240,0:24:16.240
with the group in Hong Kong,
I sent a fax at that time to the Zurich Self-Help Group.

0:24:17.040,0:24:20.130
And they invited me to
give a presentation on Reiki.

0:24:21.240,0:24:24.280
So I had 30 people from that group.

0:24:24.280,0:24:27.280
They were all HIV positive.

0:24:27.440,0:24:29.250
I started to talk

0:24:29.250,0:24:34.640
and shortly after I had started,
one of the participants

0:24:34.640,0:24:38.480
interrupted me and corrected
me and corrected probably

0:24:38.480,0:24:44.920
the birthdate of Mikao Usui.
I probably misspoke, I can't remember.

0:24:44.920,0:24:46.440
He interrupted me and corrected me.

0:24:46.440,0:24:48.520
I said, thank you and I continued.

0:24:49.320,0:24:54.710
And it didn't take long,
he interrupted me a second time.

0:24:55.040,0:24:59.480
And inside, of course,
I started to get very irritated.

0:24:59.480,0:25:02.360
But I tried to keep calm and I continued.

0:25:02.360,0:25:03.840
And he interrupted me again.

0:25:03.840,0:25:08.440
And then he said, I find it a little bit

0:25:08.440,0:25:14.720
steep that you are coming
here to tell us about Reiki.

0:25:14.720,0:25:17.670
I myself, I'm a Reiki teacher, he said.

0:25:18.800,0:25:21.880
And I find it a little
bit arrogant and steep

0:25:21.880,0:25:25.550
because you are not concerned.

0:25:25.840,0:25:27.760
You are not infected.

0:25:27.870,0:25:29.040
How dare you?

0:25:29.040,0:25:30.040
And I stood there.

0:25:30.040,0:25:32.480
And I felt that small.

0:25:32.480,0:25:36.190
So it was like a stigmatization the other way around.

0:25:36.840,0:25:41.360
So that's one of the experiences

0:25:41.360,0:25:45.630
where I was on the receiving
end of blame and shame.

0:25:46.640,0:25:48.190
They come from shame.

0:25:48.190,0:25:52.680
So, when shame becomes a trait,
it becomes blaming other people.

0:25:52.680,0:25:54.060
So it's a cycle.

0:25:54.240,0:25:56.080
He was very ashamed of himself.

0:25:56.080,0:25:57.080
And then you don't have it (HIV).

0:25:57.080,0:25:58.480
So he's blaming you.

0:25:58.480,0:25:59.640
And then you're feeling ashamed.

0:25:59.640,0:26:01.080
And then you're going
to blame someone else.

0:26:01.480,0:26:02.960
So it's a never ending cycle.

0:26:03.500,0:26:03.880
Yeah.

0:26:03.880,0:26:08.080
It's like the sociologist said,
it's being weaponized.

0:26:08.080,0:26:11.480
It's being instrumentalized
in a manipulative kind of way.

0:26:11.480,0:26:16.850
Very often to support one's own agenda.

0:26:17.560,0:26:24.230
And be it only one's own belief systems
and ideas about the world.

0:26:25.630,0:26:28.720
That's ...

0:26:29.080,0:26:32.170
You said something
very important earlier

0:26:33.000,0:26:37.840
where you used the word 'empathy'
when we are in those circles,

0:26:37.840,0:26:42.480
either on the receiving end or
when we are catching ourselves,

0:26:42.480,0:26:47.180
how we are practicing the
strategy of shame and blame.

0:26:48.490,0:26:50.030
That's, I think, important.

0:26:50.240,0:26:54.400
How, in your experience, particularly now

0:26:54.400,0:26:59.750
in the pharmaceutical industry,
in the real world out there,

0:27:00.160,0:27:05.240
in the commercial world, but also
in the medical environment of HIV people,

0:27:07.000,0:27:11.440
tell us a little bit the importance or your experiences of empathy, please.

0:27:12.030,0:27:12.640
Of course.

0:27:12.640,0:27:14.360
So for me, one thing ...

0:27:14.360,0:27:17.560
And again, I was very judgey, honestly,

0:27:17.730,0:27:19.200
In my youth and everything.

0:27:19.520,0:27:21.560
So for me, empathy is really trying

0:27:21.560,0:27:25.800
to let go preconception
and be just on the receiving end

0:27:25.800,0:27:29.820
and feeling that person and put
myself literally in their shoes.

0:27:29.820,0:27:32.160
And like, for example, as I mentioned,

0:27:32.160,0:27:33.800
how would I react if I had HIV?

0:27:33.800,0:27:35.320
I may have been as aggressive.

0:27:35.320,0:27:38.810
And empathy allows me to have
compassion instead of shame.

0:27:38.920,0:27:42.360
So if someone is doing that
circle and then they're blaming me,

0:27:42.450,0:27:45.040
when I understand that it
comes out of shame or pain,

0:27:45.040,0:27:48.570
it's easier for me not to
react and actually stay quiet,

0:27:48.880,0:27:51.480
feel very peaceful,
and bring those people

0:27:51.480,0:27:54.200
like a little bit more
calm and not reacting.

0:27:54.200,0:27:55.640
So for me, empathy is that.

0:27:55.640,0:27:58.840
It's understanding that
these people are suffering.

0:27:58.840,0:28:01.480
And when they're shaming
you and blaming you,

0:28:01.480,0:28:03.240
it comes out of suffering.

0:28:03.480,0:28:05.520
So that for me is very helpful.

0:28:05.520,0:28:08.280
And also sometimes when I
have a very strong judgment

0:28:08.280,0:28:12.600
about someone, I try to really
get out and be that person

0:28:12.600,0:28:15.040
and then I realize, OK, it doesn't mean

0:28:15.040,0:28:17.520
I'm going to justify
someone going over me,

0:28:17.520,0:28:19.690
but I understand where
they're coming from.

0:28:19.840,0:28:21.400
And that makes things better.

0:28:21.400,0:28:23.320
Unless I haven't slept, then I'm like,

0:28:23.320,0:28:24.660
I'm not a nice person.

0:28:25.720,0:28:28.080
I think empathy is very
important and empathy

0:28:28.080,0:28:29.160
but with boundaries, right?

0:28:29.160,0:28:32.080
So some people are so
empathetic that they get

0:28:32.080,0:28:34.040
the suffering of everyone on and on.

0:28:34.040,0:28:35.040
No that's ...

0:28:35.440,0:28:36.420
They are paralyzed.

0:28:36.560,0:28:39.280
So I think it has to be an empathy,

0:28:39.280,0:28:42.290
a self-care empathy,
an empathy that has a role.

0:28:42.290,0:28:45.120
Like I'm being more compassionate
because I'm empathetic.

0:28:45.120,0:28:49.040
I don't go into empathy-overdrive
and empathy with everything.

0:28:49.040,0:28:52.400
So I think it's also sometimes
we're very proud of being,

0:28:52.400,0:28:53.920
having been an empath.

0:28:54.280,0:28:56.040
And I think that also has to be, you know,

0:28:56.040,0:28:58.570
you need to be grounded,
you need to know how to use it.

0:28:58.800,0:29:02.400
And when to use it, and not to be
always like absorbing everything.

0:29:03.520,0:29:06.640
And of course,
the whole thing is true for yourself,

0:29:06.800,0:29:09.600
not just for others, because internally,

0:29:09.600,0:29:13.240
you probably, and I,
and probably all the viewers too,

0:29:13.240,0:29:17.280
are experiencing that
they're shaming themselves,

0:29:17.280,0:29:18.800
that they're blaming themselves,

0:29:18.800,0:29:21.080
that they're being
judgmental with themselves,

0:29:21.080,0:29:24.160
that they're actually
lacking what you just described.

0:29:24.160,0:29:28.800
Empathy is not just for the others,
but also for yourself.

0:29:28.800,0:29:31.200
And I find it is very closely linked

0:29:31.200,0:29:35.020
to the word, you know, when you described

0:29:35.700,0:29:38.140
empathy having boundaries.

0:29:38.680,0:29:40.360
I agree with that very much.

0:29:40.360,0:29:43.320
And I think it's very
important that we understand that.

0:29:46.520,0:29:49.720
And yet, the profound level of empathy

0:29:49.720,0:29:54.520
is almost like the twin
sister or twin brother,

0:29:54.520,0:29:56.960
I don't know, of unconditional love.

0:29:56.960,0:30:01.010
The word 'unconditional' here is very,
very important.

0:30:01.680,0:30:04.480
And for me, it's very
interesting, because I go

0:30:04.600,0:30:06.040
sometimes with people I don't know.

0:30:06.040,0:30:09.260
I like talking to people,
like, I'm not a shy person.

0:30:09.360,0:30:10.480
But I do have judgment.

0:30:10.480,0:30:13.040
And when I, then I need to
go to my place of empathy,

0:30:13.040,0:30:15.350
and that judgment melts away.

0:30:15.640,0:30:17.440
You know, it literally melts away.

0:30:17.440,0:30:19.440
So for me, empathy, that's the reason it is,

0:30:19.440,0:30:22.560
it is to melt away judgment,
is to melt away stigma.

0:30:22.560,0:30:24.120
Because how are you going to blame someone

0:30:24.120,0:30:26.920
if you really are empathetic
and you're open-hearted

0:30:26.920,0:30:30.720
and you can feel what they feel,
then for me, that's the solution.

0:30:30.960,0:30:33.080
But again, when we're
empathetic with everything,

0:30:33.080,0:30:35.520
then empathy becomes almost like a trap

0:30:35.520,0:30:37.160
versus something that can really take us,

0:30:37.160,0:30:39.840
as you say, to the place
of unconditional love.

0:30:43.400,0:30:49.000
I remember when I was ... My children were

0:30:49.000,0:30:52.980
at the Rudolph Steiner, at the
Waldorf School for two years.

0:30:53.320,0:30:58.520
And the people there, the teachers
and the parents of the children,

0:30:58.520,0:31:00.920
they're very nature-oriented.

0:31:00.920,0:31:04.560
So once the year,
the fathers in particular

0:31:04.560,0:31:09.640
go with the boys into
the forest and we built

0:31:09.640,0:31:12.390
cabins, huts, and things like that.

0:31:12.640,0:31:17.360
Now, I'm not, by background,
such a natural person,

0:31:17.360,0:31:21.180
I'm not skilled with my
hands and things like that.

0:31:21.280,0:31:22.400
And I felt terrible.

0:31:22.400,0:31:24.790
I thought, what am I
going to do with these boys?

0:31:25.280,0:31:28.850
And my neighbor was a
farmer and a carpenter.

0:31:29.040,0:31:31.000
So he was looking forward to it.

0:31:31.000,0:31:35.270
And I knew he's going to probably build a log cabin

0:31:35.270,0:31:37.660
or something within two hours.

0:31:38.000,0:31:40.960
And I was, I was ...
inwardly, I was petrified,

0:31:40.960,0:31:42.050
and I was sweating.

0:31:42.450,0:31:45.520
But I was allocated six, seven boys,

0:31:45.520,0:31:47.680
and I went with them into the forest.

0:31:48.240,0:31:51.720
And then I took a string,
and I wrapped the string around five,

0:31:51.720,0:31:54.120
six trees, it gave a huge circle.

0:31:54.120,0:31:57.560
And I asked them to go and
get big branches with leaves.

0:31:57.560,0:32:02.560
So I asked them to just lean
them against this artificial wall.

0:32:02.560,0:32:04.640
And somehow I made a
few strings at the back

0:32:04.640,0:32:07.350
and I had them put leaves on top.

0:32:08.320,0:32:10.840
And then, ...I was petrified.

0:32:10.840,0:32:15.240
And then the moment came
when all the grown-ups

0:32:15.240,0:32:18.640
went from one of the huts
to the other to admire them

0:32:18.640,0:32:21.140
and look what the others have done.

0:32:21.200,0:32:23.560
And I thought, oh no,
they're going to laugh at me.

0:32:23.560,0:32:26.990
I was petrified. And my neighbor, Jacob.

0:32:30.320,0:32:38.070
He ... he walked into this thing,
this construction.

0:32:38.560,0:32:42.070
And he said, wow! Wow!

0:32:42.760,0:32:44.910
This is like a dome.

0:32:45.200,0:32:46.700
Oh, beautiful.

0:32:49.950,0:32:52.560
But when you say that, it's
because that's an interesting, right?

0:32:52.560,0:32:56.040
I feel as a society we want
to be all the same, right?

0:32:56.040,0:32:59.440
We want to ... And no two brains are alike.

0:32:59.690,0:33:01.720
Instead of celebrating difference,

0:33:01.720,0:33:05.040
this shame and blame is
trying to make it all together.

0:33:05.040,0:33:08.630
But if you go to an escape room,
- I don't know if you have escape rooms in Switzerland?

0:33:08.630,0:33:09.240
(René nods.)

0:33:09.240,0:33:11.200
If you have 10 people with the same brain,

0:33:11.200,0:33:13.640
you're not getting out because
you need mechanical brain,

0:33:13.640,0:33:16.180
you need a pattern oriented brain,
you need different brains.

0:33:16.400,0:33:19.160
So for me, it's always
been very interesting.

0:33:19.280,0:33:22.880
Why in society do we
want to be ...like,

0:33:22.880,0:33:24.920
all the same instead
of accepting difference?

0:33:24.920,0:33:27.840
And perhaps it's because I grew
up in three different countries.

0:33:27.840,0:33:30.240
And you know, I don't even understand

0:33:30.240,0:33:32.720
why you would want to be exactly the same.

0:33:32.720,0:33:35.560
Like, why is so threatening for you ...?

0:33:35.560,0:33:36.800
Probably, we'll have taken a string

0:33:36.800,0:33:37.960
and I have said a story, right?

0:33:37.960,0:33:40.040
We all have very different gifts.

0:33:40.040,0:33:42.600
And it always amazes me
how ashamed we are of not

0:33:42.600,0:33:44.000
being like the others.

0:33:44.000,0:33:47.160
But also, we're blaming also
when people are not the same.

0:33:47.160,0:33:47.920
It's very interesting.

0:33:47.920,0:33:50.990
And I don't know why we're
so trying to be the same.

0:33:51.960,0:33:54.360
Yeah, interesting observation.

0:33:54.360,0:33:57.000
Anyhow, it was important
for me to tell the story

0:33:57.000,0:34:02.400
because it showed how, in practical life,

0:34:02.400,0:34:04.120
sometimes with something very small,

0:34:04.120,0:34:06.960
the focus was not on, oh, this doesn't

0:34:06.960,0:34:09.640
this doesn't comply with my understanding

0:34:09.640,0:34:13.120
of what the exercise was all about.

0:34:13.120,0:34:16.920
There is a person who
solved it entirely different.

0:34:16.920,0:34:19.920
I'm going to just emerge into it

0:34:19.920,0:34:23.040
and allow it to touch me.

0:34:23.040,0:34:26.040
And then have the
courage and the graciousness

0:34:26.040,0:34:29.040
and generosity to share it.

0:34:29.040,0:34:31.720
And I think we can do
that in every day's life.

0:34:31.720,0:34:35.560
And those mechanism of shame and blame,
we can feel them.

0:34:35.560,0:34:39.720
And these are good opportunities
to practice this, I think.

0:34:39.720,0:34:41.880
I think so too,
because they're easier, right?

0:34:41.880,0:34:44.920
And then you build up
courage and you start small,

0:34:44.920,0:34:49.200
but then that courage builds
up because it goes well.

0:34:49.200,0:34:51.600
And then you start
changing the world, right?

0:34:51.600,0:34:53.680
I was like that to my 20s.

0:34:53.680,0:34:54.640
Like I want to change the world.

0:34:54.640,0:34:57.200
Well, it starts with yourself,
like those doing a dome

0:34:57.200,0:34:59.240
instead of like freaking out, right?

0:34:59.240,0:35:00.760
Or trying to do what you cannot do

0:35:00.760,0:35:03.040
because you're not gifted with carpentry.

0:35:03.040,0:35:05.960
So acceptance of the
self and courage from me

0:35:05.960,0:35:08.200
are the things we need for
shame and blame and the empathy,

0:35:08.200,0:35:09.550
of course, for the others, right?

0:35:10.050,0:35:12.080
But yeah, we build
things with small things.

0:35:12.080,0:35:14.400
And I think we want to
achieve so many big things

0:35:14.400,0:35:17.890
that we disregard those tiny experiences.

0:35:18.160,0:35:20.800
And those are the ones
that make magic happen.

0:35:21.080,0:35:23.090
Yes, yes, I agree.

0:35:23.400,0:35:24.690
I agree.

0:35:24.960,0:35:28.720
Talking of magic happening,
I've prepared another little video clip.

0:35:28.960,0:35:30.200
I'm going to show it.

0:35:30.200,0:35:37.820
It is also focusing on
resolving the ... shame and blame game.

0:35:41.240,0:35:45.600
And of course, like you rightly said,
there are very important methods and tools.

0:35:46.010,0:35:53.490
Our common one is the Reiki and to me,
the most important thing in this is to do the self-treat,

0:35:53.530,0:35:57.310
which brings me to the place of empathy,
which you so beautifully described.

0:35:58.000,0:36:05.950
And so this video is coming
towards the end of our conversation.

0:36:06.640,0:36:08.430
I want to show it to you.

0:36:09.420,0:36:12.920
You may also start
to think about maybe there

0:36:12.920,0:36:16.330
is one or two things which
I haven't addressed yet.

0:36:16.390,0:36:20.070
What is important to
you to say about the topic.

0:36:20.480,0:36:21.680
But first, the video clip.

0:36:21.680,0:36:23.800
And it's a famous movie.

0:36:23.800,0:36:26.720
You will probably recognize it,
a scene from it.

0:36:27.190,0:36:32.920
There's a young boy who has been
the victim of shame and blame in the worst.

0:36:32.920,0:36:35.530
He has been abused.

0:36:36.520,0:36:38.720
It's a big topic, abuse.

0:36:38.720,0:36:44.920
I'm actually currently releasing
two sequences on this topic,

0:36:44.920,0:36:47.420
which are highly recommendable.

0:36:48.160,0:36:51.680
So this young man,
he's meeting finally a person he

0:36:51.680,0:36:57.120
can trust, a teacher, a mentor,
a therapist, and this therapist

0:36:57.120,0:37:00.000
is holding in his hands the young man's

0:37:00.000,0:37:06.550
file with the pictures how
he has been ... terrible things down to him.

0:37:06.960,0:37:09.680
And they are in the
office of the therapist,

0:37:09.680,0:37:11.700
and this is the scene.

0:37:12.040,0:37:14.040
You see this?

0:37:14.040,0:37:14.890
All this shit.

0:37:20.330,0:37:21.510
This is not your fault.

0:37:24.510,0:37:26.120
Yeah, I know that.

0:37:26.920,0:37:28.380
Look at me, son.

0:37:30.050,0:37:31.510
It's not your fault.

0:37:32.550,0:37:33.780
I know.

0:37:34.770,0:37:36.180
It's not your fault.

0:37:39.880,0:37:40.480
I know.

0:37:40.480,0:37:41.840
No, no, no.

0:37:42.080,0:37:43.970
It's not your fault.

0:37:46.200,0:37:47.000
I know.

0:37:47.000,0:37:48.230
It's not your fault.

0:37:48.400,0:37:49.470
All right.

0:37:49.680,0:37:50.840
It's not your fault.

0:37:54.160,0:37:55.210
It's not your fault.

0:37:56.200,0:37:57.550
Don't fuck with me!

0:38:00.960,0:38:02.150
It's not your fault.

0:38:02.600,0:38:03.920
Don't fuck with me, all right?

0:38:03.920,0:38:05.480
Don't fuck with me.
Not you.

0:38:05.480,0:38:06.920
It's not your fault.

0:38:11.320,0:38:12.990
(Boy weeps.)

0:38:16.190,0:38:17.880
It's not your fault!

0:38:23.320,0:38:25.440
Oh, my god.

0:38:26.920,0:38:27.920
Oh, my god.

0:38:27.920,0:38:29.580
I'm so sorry.

0:38:45.920,0:38:47.000
OK?

0:38:51.630,0:38:54.920
I wish I ...

0:38:54.920,0:38:58.250
Now I want to give a hug to
everyone who's blaming themselves.

0:39:00.040,0:39:04.520
But I think you asked me about a
couple of things I would love to say.

0:39:04.520,0:39:06.520
And I think it's a
practical exercise, right?

0:39:06.520,0:39:10.360
Because we can have these
conversations and the inspired exchange.

0:39:10.360,0:39:12.960
I think I will invite people to two things.

0:39:12.960,0:39:17.840
To first check if they have shame, to
do a checklist of what they feel ashamed of,

0:39:17.840,0:39:21.040
and also check what is stopping
them from doing or being.

0:39:21.040,0:39:24.040
And to work on that shame,
either meditation, Reiki,

0:39:24.040,0:39:27.560
a therapist, there is help, there are
their people who can help us to help.

0:39:27.560,0:39:31.040
And again, a little bit of shame
sometimes keeps us in the right way.

0:39:31.040,0:39:35.360
There is a need for that light shame
so people don't misbehave too crazy.

0:39:35.360,0:39:39.020
But really, that intrinsic shame,
I will go inwards and check.

0:39:39.160,0:39:43.440
And then also check if you're blaming
someone or something in your life often,

0:39:43.440,0:39:44.760
not just once.

0:39:44.760,0:39:48.760
And check why. What is behind that
blaming of that person, of that thing,

0:39:48.760,0:39:50.740
or destiny, or the government.

0:39:51.000,0:39:51.800
And check a little bit.

0:39:51.800,0:39:52.680
Is it fear?

0:39:52.680,0:39:53.760
Is it your own shame?

0:39:53.760,0:39:56.320
And just get to know
yourself a little better.

0:39:56.320,0:40:00.960
So when we embrace shame and blame,
almost like these are pointers of places

0:40:00.960,0:40:05.760
I can actually get to know myself better,
they become easier to bear, right?

0:40:05.760,0:40:09.360
Because I do think in a way either
because I was educating like that,

0:40:09.360,0:40:13.200
if it comes up a lot, shame and blame,
we don't need to act on it.

0:40:13.200,0:40:15.800
We can actually use it for good.

0:40:15.800,0:40:19.320
It's like, OK, this is pointing
to something that I need to work on.

0:40:19.320,0:40:23.400
And for me, I think getting to
know myself and understand myself,

0:40:23.400,0:40:28.120
self-exploration is really what
I enjoy about my practice.

0:40:28.120,0:40:30.720
And believe me, I do martial arts
and I'm really bad.

0:40:30.720,0:40:34.120
So I'm exposed to shame every day, but
that shame is helping me grow as a person

0:40:34.120,0:40:36.250
and develop that courage
we're talking about.

0:40:36.440,0:40:38.020
So don't be scared of shame and blame,

0:40:38.020,0:40:40.360
unless it's a very social thing and they're attacking you.

0:40:40.360,0:40:42.270
But in general, use it to grow.

0:40:42.960,0:40:44.320
You know, use it as pointers.

0:40:44.320,0:40:47.920
Where is that root of that
shame and blame and work on it.

0:40:49.120,0:40:54.680
That's a very valuable
closing to our conversation.

0:40:54.680,0:40:56.330
Thank you very much.

0:40:57.040,0:41:00.680
In fact, coincidentally,
I have a book on my desk.

0:41:01.400,0:41:05.480
It doesn't deal with shame and blame,
but it deals with the shame.

0:41:05.480,0:41:08.760
And you said something very important.

0:41:08.760,0:41:10.680
Maybe that's quite a healthy thing.

0:41:10.680,0:41:15.340
This book deals with doubting,
questioning and doubting.

0:41:15.560,0:41:21.160
And it's actually Mother Teresa's
letters to her mentor in the Vatican,

0:41:21.160,0:41:25.280
where she is for a lifelong, for decades,

0:41:25.280,0:41:32.060
she's writing about the inner turmoil of
questioning and doubting and feeling shame

0:41:32.360,0:41:37.720
about... For example, she is saying
that telling my nuns that they should

0:41:37.720,0:41:41.510
converse, communicate, commune with Jesus.

0:41:41.680,0:41:43.060
That's her belief.

0:41:43.120,0:41:45.280
And Jesus will respond to them.

0:41:45.280,0:41:48.200
And then she writes to
her mentor and she says,

0:41:48.200,0:41:51.200
but Jesus doesn't ... has
stopped talking to me.

0:41:51.200,0:41:52.560
I haven't heard him.

0:41:52.560,0:41:58.680
And what the hypocrite I am, so
she is in this turmoil of feeling shame

0:41:58.680,0:42:01.720
and being doubting.

0:42:02.160,0:42:07.600
And when this book came out,
it was quite a ... it created quite a stir,

0:42:07.600,0:42:13.650
because it was actually released
against her explicit wish.

0:42:13.840,0:42:15.840
She didn't ... and then she died.

0:42:15.840,0:42:17.800
And many years later, the Vatican decided,

0:42:17.800,0:42:22.600
because the Vatican,
but also psychologists and neurologists,

0:42:22.600,0:42:28.640
say exactly what you have just said,
that these processes,

0:42:28.640,0:42:32.520
that they are actually a
healthy part of our human condition

0:42:32.520,0:42:37.600
and of our growth, actually, of our
spiritual awakening in this context.

0:42:37.840,0:42:44.160
So thank you very much, Nathalie,
for having joined me today

0:42:44.160,0:42:46.510
and for your wise words.

0:42:47.920,0:42:50.550
How was this conversation with you?

0:42:50.760,0:42:52.560
I actually enjoyed very much.

0:42:52.560,0:42:54.920
And I think I'm going to be
even more active about checking

0:42:54.920,0:42:56.560
my list of shame and blame.

0:42:57.610,0:42:58.520
Because it's funny,

0:42:58.520,0:43:00.630
I'm like, I do have a little
bit of resistance to it.

0:43:00.800,0:43:04.070
So I think it's often
whatever resistance was left.

0:43:04.070,0:43:05.890
So I'm very grateful, thank you.

0:43:06.480,0:43:07.760
I thank you.

0:43:07.760,0:43:09.280
I'm saying goodbye to you.

0:43:09.280,0:43:12.140
For now, I wish you a nice day.

0:43:12.240,0:43:15.080
And bye-bye, Nathalie.

0:43:15.080,0:43:16.790
Bye. Thank you so much.

0:43:17.000,0:43:18.190
You're welcome.

0:43:18.600,0:43:22.440
Dear viewers, thank you very
much for having watched us.

0:43:22.440,0:43:25.640
The next episode will come
out in three weeks' time.

0:43:26.000,0:43:28.000
In the meantime, please subscribe.

0:43:28.160,0:43:29.200
Thank you very much.

0:43:29.200,0:43:30.280
Recommend us.